Towing a Healey

[Cottontop]

Hi All,

I just got home from our monthly Healey Tech. Session. One of our members had recently returned from flat towing his car to Colorado Springs, racing (halfway) up Pikes Peak (www.ntahc.org), and towing his car back home.

I asked if he had removed the driveshaft, he replied that he had. When I asked "Why" he replied "just to be on the safe side".

That prompted a lengthy and spirited discussion about whether or not a stock Healey w/OD can be flat towed without doing damage to the driveline.

The consensus was that nearly everybody WOULD remove the driveshaft, but nobody (including two who rebuild Healey transmissions) knew WHY they would do that, other than "to be on the safe side".

I know that nearly everybody has an <span style="font-weight: bold">opinion</span> about anything Healey, but does anybody here really KNOW the <span style="font-weight: bold">facts</span> of whether or not a stock Healey w/OD can be flat towed without doing damage to the driveline. And more importantly WHY or why NOT ?

Tim

 

[Michael Oritt]

Tim--

My understanding is that with the driveshaft attached and output shaft spinning there will not be enough splash-lubing of the gears and bearings and that damage might be done. I don't think it has anything to do with the OD but I may be dead wrong on that, or perhaps it is an issue of its own beyond the transmission portion of the question.

I have towed my 100 for a couple of hundred miles at a time via a removable tow bar that quickly detaches from DW tow eyes. I have a Toyota five-speed in the car and I think it would produce the same issues (or not) as a Healey transmssion. Just to be on the safe side I stop the towcar every 100 miles and start the engine so that the input shaft/laygear is spinning and splashing oil around. My transmission is fine, BTW.

This should be an interesting string!

 

[HealeyRick]

Here's my 2 cents: Why would anyone flat tow a car as valuable as a Healey these days? My Dad used to drag my ratty old Bugeye home on the back of a tow chain in the '60s sfter the innumerable break-downs an 8 year old car would suffer at the time, but it wouldn't be my method of choice now. Back on topic, if I was going to flat tow, I'd disconnect the driveshaft too, because I'd be afraid not to.

 

[Michael Oritt]

Here's my 2 cents: Why would anyone flat tow a car as valuable as a Healey these days?

--------------------------
Hi Rick--

Well here's a scenario: In September the DC Healey Club is putting on its "Capital Classic" weekend-long event centered at Orange, Va near James Madison's estate, Montpellior and Tommy Jefferson's spread Monticello, plus of course the interesting town of Charlottesville.

I live in Southern MD and my wife and I are planning on attending this event. However dogs are not invited and so we must board <span style="font-style: italic">Jack the World's Best Golden Retriever</span>for the weekend. There is a great boarding kennel just west of Fredericksburg, VA, right about midway along the route to Orange and just east of all the Route 1 corridor hubbub.

So what I'll do is hook up the 100 to the Tundra via the quick-detachable tow bar (tow-chain backups as with any trailer), put the magnetic taillights powered by the Tundra's lighting circuit onto the 100's rear bumper. throw Mary and Jack in the Tundra (see attached picture) and we'll all drive down to the boarding kennel, where Jack and the Tundra will stay for the weekend and Mary and Michael will depart for Central VA in the 100. Returning home will be reverse of the above....

How's that, and no I will not detach the propellor shaft.

 

[HealeyRick]

Good morning, Michael!

You're right, the subject of flat towing a Healey always seems to bring out lots of opinions. Personally, I wouldn't want to do it for any distancee over a few miles. I'm not convinced dragging another 2200 lbs of weight without brakes is such a great idea. Then there's the damage to the paint of a nice car when following so closely to the tow vehicle and I'd also be worried, needlessly perhaps, of bending the shroud. I know people do it, just wouldn't be my first choice. As to the driveshaft issue, I'm with Tim. I've heard lots of opinions both ways without any satisfactory conclusion. That's why I said I'd remove it because I'd be afraid not to.

Cheers,

 

[Cottontop]

Rick,

In a previous post, you asked:<span style="color: #3366FF">Why would anyone flat tow a car as valuable as a Healey these days?</span>

Perhaps they want to enjoy their Healey at far-flung Healey events and don't have a proper vehicle to tow a 1,500# open or 3,000# enclosed trailer with a 2,500# healey aboard. Many others don't have a place to store a 16-18 foot trailer when not in use.

Then there's driving it to far off locations. While most of us know people who drive their Healeys distances (I first met Michael Oritt from Maryland in Nevada while on the way to Open Roads 2002 in Lake Tahoe.) But what if there are 2-3 others that want to go? What if you have too much necessary luggage to fit in a Healey, or pets that <span style="font-weight: bold">cannot</span> be left behind?

<span style="color: #3366FF">>>>I'm not convinced dragging another 2200 lbs of weight without brakes is such a great idea.</span>

To a degree, you are correct, but some of that depends on what you are pulling it with. A small car or mini-pickup will not have the stopping power of a 4-WD Surburban or Ford 350 dually.

Go to the shore or a lake on any weekend and you will see the urban weekenders towing boat trailers (without brakes) with weights in excess of the weight of a 2,500# Healey. I realize that just cause it is done, doesn't mean that it is safe.

If auxillary braking is an issue for one, at least 5 companies make aux. brake systems that sit on the floor between the seat and the brake pedal and actuate the brake by a wire or wireless command from the tow vehicle. 95% of RVers use them.

<span style="color: #3366FF">>>>Then there's the damage to the paint of a nice car when following so closely to the tow vehicle </span>

There is always that possibility. Personally, I tow a Miata behind my RV and while most of the time the Miata wears a bra, IMHO the bra probably does as much damage to the car as flying debris.

RVers also have a menu of positive fixes for that situation.

<span style="color: #3366FF">>>>That's why I said I'd remove it because I'd be afraid not to.</span>

Does that comment go for a stock Healey or for your NB with an American driveline ?

Tim

 

[ahealey1004]

hey Tim- I know it's a bit off- subject but please tell me your RV is living up to the Nasty Boy reputation and at least sports some headers, or is lowered, or has some extra louvers or something to classify it as "modified"! Maybe it's got a souped-up sewage/bilge pump or a few extra gas burners?
All joking aside it looks like a nice way to travel!
Austin

 

[Cottontop]

Austin,

The RV is stock except for a new flat panel TV and an added 40 gallon fuel tank. It <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> a great way to travel. We were in 42 states and 6 Provinces in 3 years. Now been in 44.

We're still away from home 3-4 months each year. Hmmm.... Maybe that's part of why my Healey is still in pieces.

We won't see you this summer. We're gonna fly to SoCal instead of drive. We'll probably be through there hext January.

Tim

 

[Bob Claffie]

Not my personal experience, BUT, When I sold my 100/6 (with O/D ) last year the buyer towed it 150 miles to the Boston area on a two wheel dolly. I never heard from him so I expect it went flawlessly. I would have no heartburn flat towing unless the vehicles owner manual expressly forbid it. Bob

 

[Deleted member 8987]

It doesn't matter what car it is.
You either remove the driveshaft or put a disconnect for towing behind the motor home IN the driveline.

Not sure on the OD, but the spinning output shaft should lubricate it.

The BIG issue (and fatal after a while) is the bearing where the mainshaft lays into the backside of the input shaft.

There is enough wear with all but direct, but with the input gear not spinning along with the mainshaft, the bearing and shaft/gear surfaces go away real quick.

I grew up being told never put it in neutral and "coast" down a mountain grade.
Same issue.

The gears will spin oil up and keep everything lubricated, but that nose on the mainshaft will delaminate and the inside of the input shaft/gear will match.

Now, if you want to pull the trans and rebuild it after towing, go ahead and leave the driveline in.

Short hops are no big problem (couple of miles to get it home after the ghost of Lucas visits you), but hundreds of miles, no way.

Dave

 

[Johnny]

I have to agree with Dave on this one. Unless the transmission is towed in gear there will be no lubrication being sprayed around and you will suffer for it by shortening the life of the transmission.

 

[Randy Forbes]

I haven't seen them for years now, but you used to be able to buy "towing hubs" that would bolt in place of the rear wheels, then you'd bolt the wheels back to the new hubs.

They were two (2) piece with regular wheel bearing between them. You could leave the towed vehicle in park/gear, set the handbrake, and the car would still roll.

We used to tow a 1969 Boss 429 Mustang from Detroit to Milan Dragway every summer Sunday that way (with the slicks in the backseat). They must've been fairly shallow, as the stock Magnum 500s/Polyglas tires still fit in the wheelwells with no problems.

A little more trouble on the Healey, because of the wirewheel hubs, but still doable. In the end though, not as convenient as a trailer.

I too agree with Dave, as concerns the 1st & 3rd motion shafts; that'd be a lot of wear for a fairly small bearing surface. Ironically, the last sideshift transmission I rebuilt, came to me with those (and other parts) "deleted." Maybe they were planning on flat-towing it somewhere...?

Edit: I forgot that I have pictures online; first one shows it hooked up and ready to be towed, second one is self-explanatory :wink:

 

[Cottontop]

TOC & Randy,

Are you guys saying that when the transmission is in neutral and the tail shaft is spinning there are NO gears inside the transmission that are turning?

Are you also saying that if there ARE gears spinning by action of the tailshaft alone, that those gears are ABOVE the tranmsission fluid level?

Tim

 

[Randy Forbes]

Dave made the point about the input/1st motion shaft being stationary (as it only spins when the clutch/flywheel is spinning) and the fact that the mainshaft/3rd motion shaft is turning as the rear wheels turn.

The 3rd motion shaft has a "snout" that rides inside of the 1st motion shaft (seen below) and it is this junction that will be starved of oil.

Behold the snout:

And the pocket it rides in:

AS fitted in the case:

The 3rd motion shaft will be spinning, not sure if it is deep enough into the oil for splashing, but the laygear/2nd motion shaft (cluster gear to some) only spins with the 1st motion shaft, so it would be stationary under towing conditions.

So, the only "gear" that is spinning is 1st gear, and 2nd/3rd gars are stationary while the shaft is spinning inside of them, so they may also be lacking adequate lubrication.

The overdrive would be the least of your concern, as it has a pump that pushes oil through the hollow 3rd motion shaft to the bushes and bearings of the overdrive unit. This pump is driven from the 3rd motion shaft, which would be rotating when under towing conditions.

Overdrive pump and cam:

 

[HealeyRick]

I've got the solution. Combination RV and vintage race transporter:

 

[Putzkes-FAHRSPASS]

I don’t think and belive, there is any problem towing with the Driveshaft connected. The output shaft spins with the drive shaft and the friction between gears and bearings pulls the laygear with it in motion.This will splash oil around. Since there is no torque load on the bearing, there is no high friction to destroy or heat up any thing. The bearing from the input to output shaft will get enough lubrication from the oil running around and under normal driving it is spinning all times, except in the fourth gear where the shaft's ar locked direct.
I have towed my Healey, 300+ Km with 120Km/h on the freeway after a break down in Germany.
No signs of damage.

Automatic transmissions are different.

Mr.JAJA

 

[Deleted member 8987]

I don’t think and belive, there is any problem towing with the Driveshaft connected. The output shaft spins with the drive shaft and the friction between gears and bearings pulls the laygear with it in motion.This will splash oil around. Since there is no torque load on the bearing, there is no high friction to destroy or heat up any thing. The bearing from the input to output shaft will get enough lubrication from the oil running around and under normal driving it is spinning all times, except in the fourth gear where the shaft's ar locked direct.
I have towed my Healey, 300+ Km with 120Km/h on the freeway after a break down in Germany.
No signs of damage.

Automatic transmissions are different.

Mr.JAJA

Don't believe away.

Doesn't bother me.
The transmission parts suppliers love it.

I've got parts here that failed due to that.

The speed of the mainshaft at highway speeds is significant, and with the input shaft not turning, those bearings will start damaging the snout, then the race inside the input gear.

Motor home outfits make a swing-away towbar AND a cable-operated driveshaft disconnect just for that purpose.

I've worked on them.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/vehicle-towing/car/tow-two-wheel-drive-vehicle.htm

https://www.pensketruckrental.com/personal_rental/accessories/towing_tow_dolly.html

https://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/towing/towing_products_by_remco.html

And, read this:

https://www.drwtransmission.com/info.htm#Towing%20Vehicles%20behind%20Motorhomes

"Towing Vehicles behind Motorhomes
Don't think that your vehicle will be alright just because everyone tells you that you can tow that type of car behind a motorhome. Recently, one of our clients brought in a Geo Tracker (known in the motorhome owners circles as one of the vehicles that can be towed behind a motorhome) with lack of lubrication damage to the transmission. The fluid level was correct and he had it in neutral. Driveshaft was left connected. Manual transmissions CAN suffer damage when towed for too long, too fast or both. It turns out that in this case the vehicle was towed for 600 miles before it was disconnected and driven. Noise was noticed and it was hard shifting into 1st and 2nd. The 2nd gear radial needle bearing was overheated and disintegrated from lack of circulating oil. When the output shaft is spinning in neutral, the gears on the shaft are not. In order for a manual transmission to circulate oil, the gears need to be turning to splash the oil around in the casing. I cannot give any recommendations as to how long or how fast you can tow a manual transmission (refer to the manufacturer of your specific transmission), but it will help greatly if you can stop and idle the engine for a minute every 50 miles or less to get some oil splashed around in the gearbox. The safest thing to do would be to remove the driveshaft and plug the end of the trans to prevent losing any lube oil. Good luck and happy traveling."


Like I said, short distances okay, but at 600 miles they toasted a transmission thought to be "safe" by folks who didn't have a clue.

Dave

 

[Randy Forbes]

I don’t think and belive, there is any problem towing with the Driveshaft connected. The output shaft spins with the drive shaft <span style="font-weight: bold">and the friction between gears and bearings pulls the laygear with it in motion.</span>This will splash oil around. Since there is no torque load on the bearing, there is no high friction to destroy or heat up any thing. The bearing from the input to output shaft will get enough lubrication from the oil running around and under normal driving it is spinning all times, except in the fourth gear where the shaft's ar locked direct.
I have towed my Healey, 300+ Km with 120Km/h on the freeway after a break down in Germany.
No signs of damage.

Automatic transmissions are different.

Mr.JAJA

No, it doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 8987]

As originally posted and re-posted, it's the snout on the mainshaft and the pocket on the input shaft and the bearings between.

Really doesn't matter.
You'll fry your transmission, so it has to come out anyway.

 

[Cottontop]

Hi Randy,

Thanks so much for your wonderful pictures.

Regarding the picture of the two gear shafts installed IN the case. I cannot tell whether that veiw is looking down into the case with the shafts side-by-side or looking in the side of the transmission with the shafts stacked, one above the other (which it probably is).

Would you please specify which is the view AND which shaft is the input and which shaft is the output.

<span style="font-weight: bold">NEVER MIND... </span> It appears that the picture is looking in the drivers side with the input on the LEFT and the output on the RIGHT.

Do you know WHERE the fluid level is in the case?

Thanks,

Tim