starter grinding

[NutmegCT]

Decided to test the voltage regulator and generator today. Engine hasn't been started all week due to gauge, lights and wiring "issues". Got those all fixed!

So I turned on the ignition and pushed the starter button. Starter whizzed w/o spinning the engine (that's happened a couple times before). Tried starter again and heard a *real* strong grinding sound. Like gears grinding against each other. Noise stops when starter button is released.

Let it rest, tried again. Same bad grinding sound.

Thought of a trick I learned from my dad in case the bendix gear gets stuck: put car in 4th gear and gently rock back and forth.

On the first rock, I heard a one click and one clunk from under the car, then no more. Rolled a couple more times, no unusual noise. Fan was turning but no unusual sound. Figured it was fixed.

Tried a restart. No change; exact same grinding from the starter.

Battery cables tight, voltage normal, engine tries to turn when the starter tries to turn (so there's still some "connection" between starter and flywheel). Guess I'll have to wait on testing the voltage regulator and generator.


Any suggestions on getting the starter freed up?

Thanks.
Tom

 

[Guest]

Instead of rocking back and forth, try moving the car forward in fourth about a foot. Then try. Lord forbid, you may have a weak area in your ring gear. Moving it forward only might get the starter teeth on some good, sound gear teeth.

 

[Harry_Ward]

I hope it's not the ring gear.

Thinking simple here. Make sure the battery is fully charged. A weak battery will cause all kinds of noise to come from the starter. The starter may have moved or come loose, give it a shake.


If that isn't the case remove it and inspect the starter.

The TR3 starter has a rubber torsion assembly to take up the shock of the pinion gear drive engaging with the flywheel ring. There is also a coupling plate, retaining spring and two friction washers inside the pinion gear barrel. Hopefully the problem lies with the pinion gear, friction washers, retaining spring, or the rubber torsion assembly. If the retaining spring breaks it gets pretty noisy. Unfortunately, if it's none of these then go back to the first line.

 

[NutmegCT]

Interesting comment in the "owner's handbook" (Practical Hints for the Maintenance of the Triumph TR3):

Should the starter pinion become jammed in mesh with the flywheel, then it may be released by turning the crankshaft with the starting handle, or by selecting top gear and rocking the car backwards and forwards, or by removing the metal cap on the end of the starter motor and turning the end of the shaft with a spanner, Fig. 37.

Figure 37 shows end of starter (still mounted) with a small metal cap pulled off and an open end wrench on the "axle" of the starter. Caption reads "Releasing pinion from flywheel."

I don't have a starting handle (sure wish I could find an original and learn how to use it), and the rocking technique didn't work. Has anyone tried the 3rd technique (turning the end of the shaft while starter is on the car)?

Tom

 

[Harry_Ward]

I have not had to attempt this but my manual says the same. "Remove the push on cap and apply a spanner to the shaft extension at the commutator end." Of course it doesn't say which way to span it.

I know you probably don't want to hear this but I would take the starter out and inspect it (clean it). This is going to probably happen again if you do not. That said I'll go hide for a while now.

Good Luck.

 

[Brosky]

Tom,

I emailed a buddy of mine who lives in CT and used to own TR3 and asked if he had a handle available. I'll get back to you as soon as I find out. If you can email me a cell number and he has one, maybe we can arrange for me to drop it off to you when I get it. Hopefully, that would be tomorrow (Tuesday), but possibly not until Thursday, when I'm back in CT.

 

[Geo Hahn]

To release a jammed starter you put the gearbox in fourth and rock the car BACKWARDS. If you are trying to back a jammed pinion out of engagement you need to back up the flywheel.

But: The grinding you describe does not sound like a jammed starter... those usually just click once and then nada.

As for the crank... great item but know that there were several (3 or 4?) variations over the years so be sure you buy the right one. The difference is the distance from the fat part (that fits the sleeve on the apron) to the dog end of the hand crank.

 

[DougF]

With the handle, if your engine mounts are old and have sagged, the handle will not line up.
If the handle does line up, if you have a good grill, you will want to remove it before cranking the handle. When you see a TR3 with a mashed out handle hole in the grill, it's a sign that a previous owner tried hand starting the car.

 

[Twosheds]

To release a jammed starter you put the gearbox in fourth and rock the car BACKWARDS. If you are trying to back a jammed pinion out of engagement you need to back up the flywheel.

But: The grinding you describe does not sound like a jammed starter... those usually just click once and then nada.

As for the crank... great item but know that there were several (3 or 4?) variations over the years so be sure you buy the right one. The difference is the distance from the fat part (that fits the sleeve on the apron) to the dog end of the hand crank.

If I recall correctly (and that's a big IF) you can't rotate the engine backwards with the starting handle due to the design of the engagement thingie (dog?) on the crank.

 

[DougF]

You are correct.

 

[NutmegCT]

Is it ok to try starting with the starter handle even tho' the electric starter is still in "grinding" mode? In other words, is turning the engine over "by hand" going to release the "stuck" starter? Jeez - even if the engine doesn't start with the handle, maybe that's the best way to try to release the starter "jam".

Edit: no, if the crank can't turn the engine "backwards" then I guess you can't release the starter that way.

If I can find a handle, I'll remove the grill (it's almost new!). But other than having the ignition on, I don't have a clue on handle technique. I remember my dad talking about people who broke an arm when their old car started and the handle "kicked back". And stupid me wonders how the handle releases from the crankshaft when the engine turns on its own; I'd assume it would just keep turning and flaying the poor guy in front of the car.

Tom

 

[MGTF1250Dave]

Aloha Tom,

The hand crank is a good tool to use when setting valve clearance and point cap. You will need to have the radiator with the hole for the crank to pass through. The crank handle will only rotate the engine clockwise.

The "third method" has worked for me many times also. use a wrench and turn the starter motor shaft counter clockwise. Usually it only takes about a half turn to unwind the starter pinion Bendix. You will know your successful when there is very little resistance turning the shaft. Many 50's vintage Lucas starters have this feature.

I have used the hand crank on my MGTF often. Many years ago I couldn't afford a new starter so I used it constantly. If you carbs and ignition are in good shape it is not hard to start the car this way. Granted, the MG engine is only 1250 cc so it should take less effort. An important safety measure is to cup the hand crank when starting the car. If the car backfires, the the crank will forcefully rotate in the opposite direction. If you're hanging on to it with your thumb over lapping the handle it could be broken or badly sprained. I've found that if you turn the engine over several time with the ignition off it is easier to start. Turn on the ignition bring the handle around until you feel the engine coming up on a compression stroke, then give it a quick sharp turn. Usually I could get it running in a quarter turn.

 

[NutmegCT]

PS - I *can* see where previous starter handle attempts did some damage to the lower part of the radiator.

T.

 

[NutmegCT]

Dave - that is *excellent* help on how to use the handle. Thank you sir!

T.

 

[MGTF1250Dave]

The TR3 hand crank has an enlarged collar on it that fits into the guide between the grille and the radiator. This piece is suppose to prevent damage to the grille and radiator.

The large crank bolt that extend from the fan has "ears" on it. At slow speeds (hand cranking) the hand crank peg will engage an ear and turn the bolt and the crank shaft. When the car starts, the engine speed will cause the ears to kit the peg and hand crank forward disengaging it.

I would recommend either the spanner on the starter motor shaft or remove the starter to unjam and inspect the problem. If the starter is jammed into the ring gear. starting the car with a hand crank may be hard to do,. but also really break something.

 

[Don Elliott]

You cannot rotate the engine backwards with the hand crank. The big bolt on the front end of the crankshaft has two flats for positive engagement with the hand crank when you turn it the correct way and each of these has a sloped backside so when the engine starts, the large bolt will rotate and these slopes will thrust the hand crank forward to dis-engage it. This is to avoid you getting a broken wrist as many did back in the days of the old Tin-Lizzie Fords. If you insert the hand crank and try to rotate the engine backwards, the hand crank will not stay engaged - it will slip out in a forward direction on those two sloped cams.

Tom - Before you get a hand crank and then try to push it through the hole in the grille, make sure that you have a hole in your radiator. Many people have saved a few bucks having the rad re-cored and it's a bit cheaper if the rad shop doesn't put the hole in the rad.

I have used my hand crank to start my TR3A many times. It's true it all has to line up nicely. But I have never had a problem with the hole in my grille. I have never had to take my grille out to start the car with my hand crank. In fact when I put my car on display at a general public car show, I get out my crank and many younger people (like under 40 years old) ask me what it's for. Then I get 3 husky lads about 12 year to 18 years old and we have a starting competition so see which one is the strongest or the fastest to be able to start my TR with the hand crank. Then I get three more lads to try it. I've done that many times and still have a concours looking grille after 17 years and 94,000 miles. You can see it in the photo below. It still looks great.

Don Elliott, Original Owner

https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/1919

 

[Twosheds]

And stupid me wonders how the handle releases from the crankshaft when the engine turns on its own; I'd assume it would just keep turning and flaying the poor guy in front of the car.

Tom

This won't happen for the same reason that you can't turn the engine "backwards" with the starting handle; sort of a ratcheting design on the engagement thingamajig.

But I would try MGTF's advice first.

Hate to say it, but I think you're going to end up pulling the starter. Inspect the starter teeth and ring gear teeth for wear. You can see the ring gear teeth if you take the inspection cover off the front of the gearbox and rotate the engine.

TR3s had two styles of starter. I forget the change point, but it's possible that some PO put the wrong starter in for the flywheel. You have to have the correct ring gear for the starter. The early starter has a "bullet nose" that sticks into the tranny. It also sticks out farther forward. The late starter just has a shaft with gear and a spring sticking into the tranny. I THINK that the early starter takes the ring gear with no attaching screws and the late starter takes the ring gear that is held to the flywheel by screws, but I wouldn't swear to it. I might have that backwards. Someone on the Forum will know. I have too much Dain Bramage.

It's a WAG, but might be worth checking.

 

[TRTEL]

Tom, Unless a previous owner has changed out the flywheel you have an early model starter - pre TS50000 cars. Not that it makes that much difference here, but the solution may cost a bit more. It does sound like the starter is just tired. Possibly just needs new brushes and the commutator cleaned up with emery cloth etc. Definitely sounds like it needs to come out for an inspection though. Otherwise you'll just beat up the pinion and leave some bad spots on your ring gear. I would also change out both armature bushings and just clean it up in general. They usually respond fairly well.
Tom Lains
TS851 & 58107