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Starter keeps running

Gliderman8

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I am posting this for a friend...really!
He has a 1984 TVR 280i. The problem is that the starter keep running after the engine starts.
There is NO STARTER RELAY in this car and the trip wire from the ignition switch has been DISCONNECTED.
The solenoid has been professionally replaced... it's brand new!
To date he has done the following:
  • Connected a +12 jumper cable from the battery + side post directly to the starter
  • Connected a NEW separate trip wire to the solenoid (trip wire from ignition is disconnected)

When the NEW trip wire is touched to the +12v battery post with the jumper cable connected from the starter to the +12v battery post, the solenoid pulls in and the starter will engage.
HOWEVER, when the trip wire is removed from the battery, the starter keeps running.

Nothing else has changed in the car... this is the original starter that has always been in the car and has always worked.

What would keep the starter running??????
 

Gliderman8

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One more thing to add to the above....
When bench testing the starter it runs and performs as it should. When the trip wire is removed the starter stops as it should.
 

dklawson

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I know you said the solenoid was professionally replaced but if this problem is "new" since that work was done I suggest looking carefully at the solenoid wiring. It sounds like a latching circuit has been created by something being wired wrong.

I assume that on an '84 this would be a Lucas pre-engaged starter. If you look at the solenoid on that starter, there should be a threaded terminal where all the brown wires and the main battery feed cable connect. The second threaded terminal will have a heavy copper wire that goes into the starter motor. There will also be one or two spade terminals. If there are two spades, the "trip" wire from the ignition switch (or relay) goes on the larger terminal. (Where a starter relay is not used, the trip/trigger wire coming from the ignition switch is typically white/red). The smaller spade terminal is used for a ballast resistor bypass when a ballast ignition system is installed. It is not used on all cars.

Take a look at the link below. Ignore the reference to the white/green wire as that is for an MGA. On most other cars the small spade terminal will receive a white/yellow or yellow wire that comes from the coil + terminal.
https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et251a.htm
 

Gliderman8

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I know you said the solenoid was professionally replaced but if this problem is "new" since that work was done I suggest looking carefully at the solenoid wiring. It sounds like a latching circuit has been created by something being wired wrong.

I assume that on an '84 this would be a Lucas pre-engaged starter. If you look at the solenoid on that starter, there should be a threaded terminal where all the brown wires and the main battery feed cable connect. The second threaded terminal will have a heavy copper wire that goes into the starter motor. There will also be one or two spade terminals. If there are two spades, the "trip" wire from the ignition switch (or relay) goes on the larger terminal. (Where a starter relay is not used, the trip/trigger wire coming from the ignition switch is typically white/red). The smaller spade terminal is used for a ballast resistor bypass when a ballast ignition system is installed. It is not used on all cars.

Take a look at the link below. Ignore the reference to the white/green wire as that is for an MGA. On most other cars the small spade terminal will receive a white/yellow or yellow wire that comes from the coil + terminal.
https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et251a.htm

Doug, Thanks for taking the time to help. The problem started prior to installing a new solenoid. My friend had the new solenoid installed since he thought that was the cause of the problem. By the way, the starter is a Bosch and not the Lucas starter.
Also, when bench tested, the starter works as it should.
 

dklawson

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Was any work performed on the car just prior to the onset of the starter problem?

Do you happen to have a link to the Bosch starter on a parts website or similar? Is it really a Bosch starter or a rebuilt Lucas sold under the Bosch name?
 

Gliderman8

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Was any work performed on the car just prior to the onset of the starter problem?

Do you happen to have a link to the Bosch starter on a parts website or similar? Is it really a Bosch starter or a rebuilt Lucas sold under the Bosch name?
Here’s what my friend had to say about the starter:
“It came with a bosch starter from new not lucas as it is a german engine set up and the capris and grandas all used bosch starters which is what the engine and tranny are out of. It is the same part number as our 76-78 merc capri. Housing is original and stamped with the bosch info.”
 

benebob

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Finally got logged in as I've been working on another project all day but No work has been done, starter last year started running on occassionally so I had it refreshed. Put it back in and worked just fine for the remainder of the year. Put the car away for the winter and when i pulled it out to de-winterize the starter wouldn't shut off without disconnecting the battery. Took it to my local alt/starter shop and he tested it fine but since he is a great guy and friend went thru it and found nothing wrong but put a different brand solenoid on it, bench tested fine but in the car it runs on, took it back in and he found a similar bosch core in the basement and swapped the guts out and again put a different solenoid brand on it, bench test fine, runs on in the car. No ign switch or relay in the circuit now, nothing else even wired in the car at all in fact aside from a ground to the alt bracket, the starter wirer (which is brand new as while the starter was out I had it out I had him make a new one up as the old one was original so quite heat hardened etc. The teeth on the starter and flywheel look good. It is not a starter designed for shimming either but I did even try prying it the .5mm or so while tightening so that it had a bit more clearance to mesh to no avail. As Elliot I think stated the solenoid fires and releases just fine on the car if you don't connect the starter wire but as soon as you connect the starter wire and energize the solenoid then de-energize the solenoid it does not release. Both me and the starter shop are at a loss. New or reman starters aren't available stateside so would need to come from Europe so not cheap with shipping a 12lbs airmail package. I am hoping to borrow a starter from another 280i owner in the next few days once he gets his car back form the garage for hydraulic work.
 

dklawson

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In Elliot's last post he pasted information from Bob that this starter was the same as used on the '76-'78 Mercury Capri. However, in Bob's post Bob said that the starters were not available in the U.S. This is a bit confusing.

Though the solenoid mechanisms are very different, the wiring of the Bosch and Lucas starters should be the same.

I understand that the starter tests OK out of the car and Bob said nothing else on the car is hooked up. With your dedicated trigger wire you have already carried out the test I was going to suggest. Forgive me for asking but can you post pictures of the wiring that is currently on the solenoid?

When you bolt the starter into position was its mounting flange perfectly flat?
 

benebob

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Find a starter for a Merc Capri if you can. I'm guessing there are a few on dusty shelves in inventory but Team Blitz (the capri source) doesn't even have any. The Capri stateside was purged from the big warehouse supplies a few years back.

It is hooked up the only way you can. Can't get a pic in the car as it is up against the motor mount but it is correct. The surface is flat but again, it was flat before and remains flat. There never was a lucas starter for this car unless it was aftermarket but the problem with any aftermarket stuff is that is probably won't fit dimension wise in the space provided. Basically the engine mount was placed "around" the starter. You can't even attach the starter wire in the car as the post indents the rubber doughnut on ther mount.
 

dklawson

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Since you and your electrical shop have tried a number of new/different components on the starter I am at a loss to understand what is going on.

During the "mounted" tests where the starter motor would not stop did you have ALL the wires removed from the starter motor except the main battery cable and your homemade trigger wire?

I assume that the TVR 280i uses the 2.8L engine. Is that correct?
 

benebob

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Since you and your electrical shop have tried a number of new/different components on the starter I am at a loss to understand what is going on.

During the "mounted" tests where the starter motor would not stop did you have ALL the wires removed from the starter motor except the main battery cable and your homemade trigger wire?

I assume that the TVR 280i uses the 2.8L engine. Is that correct?


Noting else is attached to the starter ever on my car (there would have been a trigger wire for the fuel pump "run/start" relay but that relay was gone when I got it a decade ago from spending 10 years abandoned in the desert of southern Colorado but as I think Elliot or I stated, nothing else is attached to the battery either, no wires going to the fuse box, alt, etc. Just a ground to the engine from the neg and the starter wire with a jumper to the soleniod to touch to the pos. Yes the 2.8l cologne motor pretty much directly out of the Capri Mark 3 Injection (I am even running a european spec fuel system without the lamda sensor and all that emissions stuff we got.
 

Gliderman8

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Since you and your electrical shop have tried a number of new/different components on the starter I am at a loss to understand what is going on.

During the "mounted" tests where the starter motor would not stop did you have ALL the wires removed from the starter motor except the main battery cable and your homemade trigger wire?

I assume that the TVR 280i uses the 2.8L engine. Is that correct?
Doug... I am at a loss also. It just doesn't make any sense to me!
During the mounted test (starter in car) there are only two wires attached-- The trip wire and the main jumper going to the POS terminal and that's it.
Touching the jumper wire to the POS terminal causes the solenoid to pull in and the starter starts. Removing the trip wire with the POS cable connected to the starter does not cause the starter to stop. It's crazy.
 

dklawson

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I Googled Bosch starters this evening. If they are all the same, your starter motor should be using a pull-type solenoid. All I can figure is that somehow when the engine is firing, somehow a load is being transferred to the pinion extend linkage causing it to bind and hold the power contacts together.

You said you were going to try and borrow a starter from another 280i owner. That may be your best bet for determining what is going on. Please post back here with your findings.
 

Gliderman8

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I Googled Bosch starters this evening. If they are all the same, your starter motor should be using a pull-type solenoid. All I can figure is that somehow when the engine is firing, somehow a load is being transferred to the pinion extend linkage causing it to bind and hold the power contacts together.

You said you were going to try and borrow a starter from another 280i owner. That may be your best bet for determining what is going on. Please post back here with your findings.
Thanks Doug. When benebob gets the borrowed starter installed we will be sure to report back. Thank you again for all your help.... it's appreciated.
 

LarryK

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Must still be running, no answer.
 

dklawson

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I've been wondering what happened with the starter problem.
 

Gliderman8

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Hang in there guys..... there have been some developments. I will contact benebob to post the details.
 

LarryK

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I was figuringnl he turned into an electric car! :emmersed:
 

Gliderman8

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I was figuringnl he turned into an electric car! :emmersed:
He was planning on roasting marshmallows if he couldn't get it going :jester:
 

benebob

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Well I did finally get it working and it makes absolutely no sense but it is working so time to ignore logic and move on.

Borrowed a starter from another 280i and it worked fine. My rebuilder opened both up and measured gears etc and only found that his stil had the old style Bosch solenoid on it which on the plunger has a rectangular opening for the arm not the later square so I found and got a chinese Win solenoid that was like the original bosch would have been. Still no start. Got a yard starter from Team blitz that worked as well but when I took it to my rebuilder to clean up and make sure it would work long term he found it had a little incident in its life and was completely melted inside. Not rebuildable without new fields. At this point he cobbled together out of a few similar cores a nearly new starter. The nosepiece was original to the car as the Capri one is slightly different diameter inside for the lip of the magentic housing so without machine work it wouldn't work. Took that home and still no go or should I say no stop spinning the engine. Knowing that the only piece in there that was not out of another set up was the nosepiece I figured it was worth loosening both bolts until it disengaged enough to shut down. Well 1 full turn. No, 2 full turns No. 3 new turns yes. I had previously tried shimming it with a flat feeler and that didn't work but now tried a nearly 1/8" washer starting at the top bolt and moving down. Once I got close to the bottom bolt it would stop running. Of course this starter is not designed to be shimmed so my rebuilder finally sourced a core from another shop he deals with occasionally (it was actually the same bosch number as mine so likely came off a v4 skidsteer as they were the only other use of that starter stateside. it arrived in amazing condition, we put it it and it works. How a starter nose piece that is cast aluminum nearly 1/4" thinkc decided it was gonna change shape over winter so massively that it required a 1/8" shim is beyond me but she is back waking up the neighborhood or at least will be once we are allowed to go out. :smile:
 
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