TR6 {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this picture?

[GuyShark]

From this thread: https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthread...1&fpart=all

I have the transmission out, but I don't know what to look for, or what is broken (if anything). I took a few pictures this morning for ya'll to look at.

Do you see anything wrong? Does this look OK? Help!

 

[Brosky]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

In picture #3, there seems to be some wear on the fingers of the fork.
Where is the T/O bearing and sleeve? How do they look?
Is there any play in the bushings in the transmission that the cross shaft is mated into? Now is the time to fix them if so.
Was the fork loose on the shaft when you took it apart? Is there any play in the fork to cross shaft mating surfaces?
Where or what is leaking causing all of the oil to be in there? And are you planning on fixing that before it goes back in?
How did the pilot bearing in the rear of the crankshaft?
Is there any burned looking or blackened areas on the flywheel? I'll bet there is from all of this oil.
What exactly made you take this apart?

 

[trboost]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Guy,

It appears the fork has had a broken pin before & a service hole was drilled to get the broken tip out. Pull the wire from the fork pin & remove it. If you only get part of it ( as I suspect ) , then replace the pin & drill an additional hole through the fork & shaft as insurance. If you need a pic of the proper place to drill let me know.
It also looks like your front trany seal is worn judging from the amount of oil I see.

 

[tomshobby]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

All of the above.

Just curious, how much lube is still in the tranny?

 

[Alan_Myers]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Hi,

I suggest you remove that taper pin to check it, no matter what. I would also always replace it with a new one, as a matter of course while the gearbox is out. If you do replace it, try to get an "upgraded" pin if at all possible.

Yeah, as noted the pins in the end of that release fork do appear to have some flattening on the sides. This is normal wear from repeatedly actuating the TO bearing carrier. You can replace the pins alone (they're peened into the fork), or replace the entire fork with one that includes new pins (suggest predrilling the hole you see there, allowing easy removal of any future broken taper pin, and installing the backup bolt as described), or just rotate the pins 90 degrees with a wrench so that they will bear on on a newer, unworn surface surface.

Especially since it's a TR6, check for lateral play in the bushings where the cross shaft goes through the bellhousing. If there is any noticible play, replace those two bushings. If you end up replacing, either double up the number of narrow bushings (to two per side), or get the earier TR4 wider/greasable bushings.

If you find yourself replacing the cross shaft for any reason, the earlier/greasable TR4 cross shaft is highly recommended.

I agree with others, seems to be a lot of oil in there. Where is it coming from?

Unless it's really near new, I'd at least replace the TO bearing, maybe the clutch driven disk, too. Or maybe all three clutch parts and reface the flywheel.

Overall, it's just not much fun pulling the gearbox, so any and all you can do to keep from having to do so again any time soon is time and money well spent, IMHO.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Brosky]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Tom, I'm more concerned about the rear main seal. There is a lot of oil here and it may have come down from the valve cover, out of the rear main, out of the front seal, or more than likely a combination of all three.

I would replace every gasket and seal possible while it's out. And definitely check the flywheel to see if it's impregnated with oil before installing a fresh clutch setup.

I agree with Alan on the shaft and bushings, but I suggest replacing the entire clutch setup, not pieces.

 

[tomshobby]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

I wondered about that too Paul. The oil looked a little thick and dark but it still could be. A look at the back of the engine behind the flywheel might reveal if there is a leak there. If there is and it is enough there might be a relatively clean path where the oil would be running down.

With the amount of oil showing I would be inclined to follow Alan's suggestion to replace everything including seals as long as it is open.

 

[Brosky]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Tom, with that amount of oil, I'd be willing to bet that the flywheel has hot spots on it and a new clutch will begin to chatter almost as soon as it's installed. The flywheel should be cleaned thoughly with Acetone and then machined to get any high spots out and cleaned again before mounting clutch.

As you stated it's the only chance he'll have without pulling it all again to get the back cover off and check the rear main.

 

[Guest]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

All the above, plus, the crank seal on the engine is leaking, not the tranny seal. That, plus some DPO put WAY too much grease on the TO bearing. If you have the tranny out, which we all know is a difficult project, I am of the mind to change everything inside, unless the parts are completely new already. All that oil and grease ruins a clutch plate and plays havoc with a flywheel.


Bill

 

[GuyShark]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

I've got some pics of the clutch & flywheel, (I have not removed the clutch from it), and I do not see any hot spots, or oil. There is a lot of grease around the seal inside there.

I removed the pin from the fork, and its NOT broken. Dang.

I know the clutch is rather new, (less than 1 year), but I'm not sure about the t/o bearing. The lateral play is non-existant. Its solid. (thankfully)

I will post some pics tomorrow for review, and I think I'll plan on a new main seal, but thats it, then reinstall. I will try to rotate the pins 90* as well. There are some flat spots.

THEN, a slave cylinder rebuild kit, possibly a MC rebuild kit as well.

IF it don't work once I get it back together, I'll take it to a dang shop!

 

[trboost]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Guy,
I'm really surprised. I thought for sure the pin would have been sheared. Now I'm stumped.
To review your original problem, the slave cyl moved the arm the desired 1/2-3/4" approx. You tried the upper most hole in the arm. The clutch was not dissenguaging unless the motor was turned off and then put in gear.
If the play was in the pedal box the movement of the slave cyl would suffer. Even if the fork pins were all but gone the slave cylinder should of taken up the slack as it does when the clutch wears.
I'm wondering if the pressure plate is defective. I bought a rebuilt B&B pressure plate a few years ago that gave similar problems.
I would also put the shaft in a vise & try to see if the fork rocks on the shaft.

 

[GuyShark]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Yes, I am stumped. I measured and was sure I was seeing almost .75" of travel out of the slave cylinder.

The PO replaced the clutch not too long ago. I wouldn't think it would be worn out. Possibly defective, however.

Here is a pic of the flywheel, I did not see any oil stains, so I think the leak must be coming from the transmission.

 

[GuyShark]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

I talked with my buddy (who is a VW guy), and after explaining what was wrong, and what was right, he suggested pulling the clutch plate. He has heard of instances (in the VW world) when a car sits for too long, the clutch will stick. I guess since I have it disassembled to this level, taking the clutch off isn't a huge deal.

 

[tomshobby]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Probably a dumb question.
It looks like the PP fingers got hot. Did they get that way from rubbing on the TO bearing and maybe get hot enough to bend?

 

[Alan_Myers]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Hi again,

Frankly, I doubt it's a stuck driven plate, because that usually locks everything up and you won't be able to drive the car at all.

You drove the car home, right? A pretty long drive at that. And the shifting problem was sudden, the next day, when the engine was cold. And you simply can't shift into any gear at all, right?

Because it was working initially, I'm guessing it's not a problem with mis-matched parts or anything like that.

This also leads me to believe that there isn't oil on the driven plate, inspite of how it looks inside the bell housing. That would usually cause the clutch to start slipping, not prevent you from shifting into gear. The one exception might be if oil caused the friction material on the driven plate of the clutch to swell up a lot.

The symptoms lead me to believe something is broken, which would most commonly be the taper pin.

Since that's okay, I'd look for something else that broke suddenly, such as the release springs on the pressure plate. Or, it could also be elsewhere in the actuating linkage, such as the clevis pin. Or, the TO bearng mgiht be hanging up on something.

Perhaps its not the clutch at all. It might be a problem with the shift lever on the gearbox (this would likely be obvious).

Have you checked the oil level in the gearbox? Insufficient oil might cause a problem (and it looks like it's leaking out).

Worst case, something is broken inside the gearbox itself. However, there the most likely things would effect one or two gears, not likely all of them (and reverse). Still, it's possible. Is there a drain on the gearbox to allow you to check for any metal particles or bits in there? If not, the top cover isn't hard to remove, to allow a peek inside, but you will at least need a new gasket to reassemble it.

Have you asked the seller if any very recent work was done on the car? If so, what was done? Something might have "slipped" or come loose.

 

[startech47]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Looks like the clutch disc may be installed backwards with the extended splined hub towards the flywheel instead of the pressure plate. This will put the smaller torsion spring disk on the clutch disc against the flywheel to crank bolts and cause no disengagement when the clutch pedal is depressed even though the slave cylinder strokes out properly. You need to remove the pressure plate and clutch disc to look for the hot spots on the flywheel and the pressure plate surface as they are caused by the disc material rubbing against the metal. The disc being installed backwards is a common problem.

 

[Brosky]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

Very observant, Startech47!

Guy, for the price of the a new fork with new pins in it, don't mess around with turning the worn spots over. You'll loosen them up and this may lead to a major failure down the road. Just replace it so this job will not have to be done again.

 

[GuyShark]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

I removed the clutch, and it was installed correctly.

That wasn't it.

Where is the :banghead smiley?

I can only think of the slave cylinder. I must have missed something.

 

[TR4nut]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

I was thinking slave/hydraulics before, but your catastrophic failure comment has me stumped. The last TR6 I had was very finicky with getting the slave fully bled - but that problem doesn't happen as a catastophic failure. I think this may have been suggested before, but check the plastic line to the slave - when those wear you might get too much flex in the line which may contribute to the problem. I'm stretching on that one as a guess, but I had a bad one blow out completely once so I know they do wear out.

Good luck,
Randy

 

[Brosky]

Re: {TR6 Clutch Pics}. Whats wrong with this pict

This may sound silly, but I read this info below, either here or on another forum.

You didn't just replace carpeting or padding by any chance? Another fellow did and went through a terrible time replacing clutches, masters and slaves and ultimately found the padding was stopping the pedal from going down far enough to allow the clutch to engage.

He was embarrassed, but nice enough to post it so we'd all know for the future.