Tr Toyota 5 speed upgrade

[prb51]

Gents,
I wasn't happy with the vibration I was getting after putting the Toyota 5 speed in my 3. The car vibrated some before (what 3 doesn't) but after the change over it was more pronounced.
Since we used the existing stock flywheel/clutch basket (only changed the clutch plate) we figured the only thing it could be was the driveshaft.
We had used the same type of collar that the HVDA kit uses in locking the driveshaft in its most extended position...for those that don't have the 5 speed the Toyota tranny takes up the slack at the input shaft so you need a solid driveshaft.
Anyway, a 53 year old driveshaft fully extended and locked by that collar had to be the culprit.
Bill took his to a specialist and he tested his TR3 DS on the balancing machine and found it had 10 thousandths play or wobble in that configuration. There is no way to balance a DS that wobbles at a joint. You figure that when fully extended (as the kits call for) you've less mating material and then take into account the wear factor for our old DS's.
So he made us a solid DS with a Toyota front spline and a mating surface for the TR3 rear, all new u joints (common flaps availability) balanced to 100+mph/painted and ready to go.
Because the front spline section is not detachable I had to remove my tranny cover for clearance and you only use 4 bolts for the rear.
I couldn't believe the difference, I suspect mine was out of tolerance further than Bills as the reduction in vibration was huge...from idle up to 75 mph today. Just awesome and I don't have to worry about the collar coming loose (mine had drifted 1/4 in from installation) and having a flying driveshaft to deal with.
Here's the pics.
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/prb51/DSC01260.jpg
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/prb51/DSC01261.jpg
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/prb51/DSC01262.jpg

 

[PeterK]

That's really good info. We don't have any vibration on ours but I would prefer not to rely on the locking collar to keep the ds extended. Herman now recommends having a new ds made up for that reason too.

So what did it run you for the whole thing balanced? It looks really well done. What fitment did they use for u-joints?

There is a very big difference in your setup and the HDVA. The HVDA uses a rubber cushion on each side of the rear tranny mount. Yours look like a solid metal to metal mount which would transmit all vibration to the body.

Also the nyloc on your mount doesn't look like it is tightened far enough to lock. Not a bad idead to check in case it vibrates loose.

 

[prb51]

Peter,
First the disclaimer, I don't get any dough out of this. I love to work with Bill because he just loves to make things work right so he always calls me when he has something new....I beieve I got him thinking about this though and I was going to try and get mine balanced with the lock collar but when I found out about the wobble wanted to do something else.
Under the mount you see there is a 1/2" neoprene block that I'd removed for clearance and hadn't tightn'd the nuts yet.
The deal from Bill is $325 complete driveshaft balanced/painted as you see it in the pics.
He got into this thing because Herman wouldn't discount for clubs or enthusiasts. Herman, who I understand is a great guy, told him "Well, if you don't like the price make one youself" so he did. With my tranny conversion from Bill and the driveshaft I'm still $700 cheaper than the HVDA by itself.

 

[Brosky]

PRB,

Does he have anything in the works for a TR6 conversion?

 

[PeterK]

Paul,

HVDA kit is the same thing for TR2-TR4A with a different rear mount used for the TR6. So I would expect that it wouldn't be hard to fab one to fit.

 

[prb51]

Paul,
He tells me that same unit will work for a TR3/4/6...he's done the Toyota tranny conversions for all of them and they are all very similar.

 

[prb51]

I don't want to step on any rules here so pm me and I'll give you Bills contact info if any want it.

 

[Brosky]

Interesting. I'm not looking to do mine because I have a J type already, but I have a buddy who might be interested. Do you have a web site or more info that you can post or PM to me?

 

[Brosky]

Whoops, I posted too late.

 

[prb51]

I just talked to Bill at home and he put up a one page site with his email... this shouldn't cause an issue as I've seen sites listed here all of the time
https://eaglegatellc.com

He's an enthusiast with a bunch of cars so be prepared to talk

 

[BobbyD]

I'm confused.......no surprise there.....so help me out. I did Herman's 5 speed conversion ( https://tr6.danielsonfamily.org/5Speed.htm ) last year and went with a solid balanced drive shaft (as Herman recommends) for $210. Very smooth......no problems. Did you do your own 5 speed conversion i.e. make up your own parts? Or did you do Herman's but didn't do the solid drive shaft and had a vibration? With me at least Herman was very adamant about the need for a solid drive shaft. You do not want 2 slips in one drive line.

 

[prb51]

No, I used Bills conversion kit. He uses a modified TR3/6 bell housing that mates to the 5 speed tranny. You use your original flywheel/clutch basket (for me with an early TR3 that saved me sourcing/modifying those parts..) and your original clutch fork and throw out bearing. He provides a pilot bearing and mount with the kit too.
The vibration was from the original drive shaft with the collar on it. It was probably out of balance and the splines worn a tad so no way around the thing (when Bills was tested it also wobbled at the splines from wear).
He's had the DS fabricated and it's a bit different than yours as there are no flanges/bolts at the tranny end just the U joint. The fabricator made a toyota shaft spline attached directly to the forward U joint to save weight/rotating mass and there are 4 less bolts to worry about.
The new DS is 4 lbs. lighter than the my old DS.

 

[SteveTR]

My two cents. Bill is a great person to chat with and is a whiz with Triumphs.

There are always different ways to approach a problem. I believe my way with Bill is the best - all the way around. There are not enough words for Bill's heart and talent.

 

[tomshobby]

I am most likely going to make a change from non-od to an od tranny this spring. I have already decided, somewhat reluctantly, to use a Toyota conversion instead of a Triumph box.

Probably a couple years ago I saw photos of this new conversion which may or may not have been Bill's. For me it was an easy choice to go with the HVDA Conversion. If any of my reasons have changed I would really like to know.

The conversion I saw looked somewhat cobbled. The bell housing was cut from a TR box and then machined so an adapter plate would fit. There was also some welding to add areas where tranny mount bolts fastened.

I wondered how true this work would be knowing that it would determine the transmission alignment in all directions. I felt the HVDA bell housing would have a better chance of doing this.

I felt the HVDA setup was better because it got rid of the "dreaded" fork pin. And I liked the hydraulic throw out set up better.

The final part of making my choice was that at least for me the cost between the two looked closer than it first seemed.

There was the cost of the TR tranny that I would destroy, the welding, and the machining.

 

[prb51]

Tom,
Everyone has to make a choice but for some it also comes down to how much.
I tried Bills kit because I know guys using it and most of them really drive their cars hard, very hard, and not one kit has ever had issues.
I like the old fork/shaft deal. If another pin is added it's foolproof and I can use normal TR parts and have the exact clutch feel as before (you don't even touch the slave cylinder assembly other rthan dropping it from the mount).
I could also use my early flywheel, the clutch basket I had etc.etc.
Bill makes his kit affordable so enthusiasts can use them without going budget overboard....his kit with all of the welding and machining done is $800 vs. $2000 presently for the HVDA. Pick up a Toyota box for a few hundred and you're at a grand. If you use your own tranny bell as a donor (I did) there is no cost there either and after using a 5 speed once you know you'd never use the 4 again. Anyways, with the savings you could buy 3 TR boxes.
BTW, it ain't "cobbled together" as Bills been designing items and building cars for 30 years.

 

[tomshobby]

prb51,
Thanks for responding to my questions. I tend to really dig into a project like this before committing to it. Your views are a big help.

I did my fork pin this way.
second taper fork pin

I still add the TR box as a cost because mine is low mileage and in excellent condition and could be sold for at least a few hundred.

And still there is some cost favor in the way you did yours.

Either way I decide I do appreciate your thoughts.

 

[PeterK]

Not to start a flurry of mine's better than yours but simply stated, Herman's HVDA conversion is an elegant, well engineered and supported bolt-on solution. You do not have to weld or cut anything and it is completely reverseable using your old (un-cut) parts. I have two of his kits and would not hesitate to do it again.

BobbyD has documented the entire process on his website although when I did mine, it seemed much simpler than Bob's excellent write-up.

I have had no problems with the extended propshaft and locking collar but I think that I will have new solid shafts made sometime in the not too distant future for safety. The clutch action is exceptional and there is not fork, shaft or slave cylinder to worry with. The only caveat is that the t/o bearing cannot use silicone fluid, DOT3/4 only.

 

[mallard]

All I can say about the Toyota conversion that Bill does is that it is first class. Any problems and he will correct it. There are alot of cars in AZ that are running his conversions. Bill is a very good friend of mine, he knows these cars inside and out.

I for one love my J type overdrive in my TR6. My TR3 will have a A type when the restoration is done. Last year heading back home from one of the many Arizona rallies (The BEAT) with a group of Triumph friends on the Beeline highway from Payson, 90 miles. I had the most fun moving thru the gears and popping in and out of overdrive going thru the mountain grades keeping the car in it's power band. It seemed like it took only minutes to cover the 90 miles. You can't get that with a five speed. Any way just get out and enjoy the ride.

 

[tinman58]

I am considering the toyota conversion for next fall. Whice tranny (year, make, model) do you use?
Dan

 

[Brosky]

Keith,

That is exactly why I love my O/D. I was just curious about this conversion because I never knew about it.