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HP Impact of a Toyota transmission, or a header/2" exhaust ???

twas_brillig

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I've heard that the Toyota 5 speed is a more efficient transmission and absorbs less hp than the original factory tranny. Does anyone have any specific knowledge? And if anyone is currently planning on substituting in a 5 speed, kindly do some gear-equivalent runs from 40 to 60 mph or some such, before and after - I'm sure there's recommendations out there for trying to estimate power from measured acceleration (the old pounds/(2 x hp) = 0 to 60 in seconds is not too bad, but I think the difference in shifting characteristics would impact the results).

Similarly - a neighbour with a BJ8 is thinking of going for a 2 inch header and matching exhaust system, based on his understanding of a Denis Welch comment that the upgrade would provide the biggest bang for the buck.

I'm not too concerned, but am curious. Thanks, Doug
 

DerekJ

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Jeremy Welch told me that they tested a BJ8 before and after the installation of a 6 branch exhaust manifold and the difference was about 5 bhp. The Toyota transmission may be slightly more efficient but I can't imagine it makes any significant difference to acceleration. If you want more power install a hotter camshaft. The Toyota transmission will also significantly reduce the value of your car.
 

Patrick67BJ8

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The Toyota transmission has very nicely spaced gear ratios and is fully synchronized which makes getting into first gear a breeze. No more OD parts to have to troubleshoot! It adds value to the Healey n the US, but save the original trans because someone wanting your Healey when you sell it might consider that as a significant part of the purchase.
 

EV2239

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Jeremy Welch told me that they tested a BJ8 before and after the installation of a 6 branch exhaust manifold and the difference was about 5 bhp. The Toyota transmission may be slightly more efficient but I can't imagine it makes any significant difference to acceleration. If you want more power install a hotter camshaft. The Toyota transmission will also significantly reduce the value of your car.

A decent five speed gearbox with modern syncromesh and evenly spaced ratios might well knock over a second of the 0-60 time if you consider that the TR5, that had better ratios took just over 8 secs and the BJ8 9.8 secs. It was faster to 100 at 23 secs instead of 28. I'm sure the Healey's awful clunky old box is to blame for the difference.

I wouldn't recommend a hotter cam with the standard ratios either because IMO it exaggerates the gap between 2nd and 3rd, which is already noticeable if you Rev hard through the gears.

Interestingly TRs are much more torquey with Webers fitted and I wonder if the Healey would benefit from a set. The gas flowing of my cylinder head was overseen by an ex Abingdon competition department chap who was sure that when he was there, the works cars used standard cams, gas flowed heads with 10 to 1 compression and Webers, but no more. For a road car I'd guess the intake noise would be unwelcome, but it would be nice to try a car with them on.
 
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Action results show a decrease in value if the gear box and/or the carbs are changed. Keep the good old stuff for the next guy to put back on.
TH
 

EV2239

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Action results show a decrease in value if the gear box and/or the carbs are changed. Keep the good old stuff for the next guy to put back on.
TH

You're absolutely right. Mine is a standard BJ7 with a carefully built BJ8 engine in it because it's a little more powerful. I did this because the engine in the car was a BMC Gold Seal replacement rather than the original. I like original best.
 

John Turney

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Denis Welch told me that a pair of HD8s was better than Webers because of their flexibility. The Webers are better for all out racing.
 

DerekJ

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Sorry, regarding acceleration I was referring to the effect of the more efficient gearbox in not sapping power rather than the fact it is faster to change gear. Put a V8 engine in and you'll accelerate even faster. I cannot see how installing a modern Toyota gearbox can increase the value of an Austin Healey.

For normal use and even for more sporty driving such as rallying, the SU's are perfectly fine and give the engine what it asks for. Webers have a couple of advantages. Quicker response to flooring the throttle as they have an accelerator pump, plus they can deliver more fuel at the top end. With Triple DCOEs you have 6 carbs for six cylinders as opposed to only 2 (or 3) with SUs.

However he SU is a really beautifully simple design whereas a Weber isn't.
 

EV2239

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Just to clarify.

1. The Healey box has a very low first, a second that's about where first should be and a gap to third. All with a heavy action and iffy syncromesh. Any modern box not only changes faster but has better and evenly spaced ratios, so must aid acceleration.

2. Webers not only give more power at the top end, but also more torque at the bottom than SUs. This is why the Works used them for rallying. There both ends matter.

3. In the UK Healeys probably make a bit more money than in the States and more still if someone has turned them into a Rally Replica and rendered them noisier and less pleasant for general use. Or that it is how it appears. :(
 

Gearhead_Garage

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HealeyPassion

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FWIW: I've been told by a vintage Healey racer of some 40 yrs that, the 2" headers/exhaust only make more power in a Healey engine that has a bunch of work... i.e. head work, hotter cam, etc. and then at the top of the rpm range. Yes, he says the exhaust manifold may be the single most inefficient piece of the engine, but smaller diameter header/exhaust works better for the street (low/mid-range power).... like 1 1/2" .... Kirk makes those.

Steve

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Not so, I believe the carburettor used on the Merlin engine was a Claudel Hobson.

BMC owned SU (Skinner Union) and R-R & B designed their own versions and had SU make them.

Then the Internet needs to be corrected, because there are a lot of pages saying the Merlin used an SU pressure carb--so it's not like those used in our cars, but still--including the following:

"Another improvement was made by moving the fuel outlet from the bottom of the S.U. carburettor to exactly halfway up the side, which allowed the fuel to flow equally well under negative or positive g.[SUP][46][/SUP] Further improvements were introduced throughout the Merlin range: 1943 saw the introduction of a Bendix-Stromberg pressure carburettor that injected fuel at 5 pounds per square inch (34 kPa; 0.34 bar) through a nozzle directly into the supercharger, and was fitted to Merlin 66, 70, 76, 77 and 85 variants. The final development, which was fitted to the 100-series Merlins, was an S.U. injection carburettor that injected fuel into the supercharger using a fuel pump driven as a function of crankshaft speed and engine pressures.[SUP]"[/SUP]


from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin


"The actual throttle plate that regulates airflow into the engine is located between the intake manifold and the variable venturi. The suction in the intake manifold draws the fuel�air mixture into the manifold as the throttle opens. The suction in the volume between the throttle and variable venturi is the source for the operation of the variable venturi piston. This basic philosophy was the inspiration for the S.U. aircraft carburetor design. Note the similarity between the automobile and aircraft fuel metering jets and needles in Figure 49 (12 to 16). S.U. type Merlin A.V.T. 44/ 206 or 208 (anti "g") duplex double-entry carburetors were used on the Merlin 61 engine. The maximum fuel demand is 135 gallons per hour. The fuel, at fuel pump pressure, flows through an 8 ~ 10 psi reducing valve before entering the fuel supply connection (1) (Fig. 49)."

pic:

Fig049.jpg

-- and --

" The SU twin-choke up-draught type Merlin carburettor fitted to this engine is, with the exception of the separate boost control unit, entirely self-contained and is arranged to be fully automatic in its functioning, with the result that the responsibilities of the pilot are reduced to their simplest form and the danger of engine damage resulting from incorrect setting is reduced. "

from: https://www.airpages.ru/eng/mt/merlin25.shtml

-- and --

"The final development was an SU injection carburettor which injected fuel into the supercharger using a fuel pump driven as a function of crankshaft speed and engine pressures, which was fitted to the 100 series Merlins. Production of the Griffon-engined Spitfire Mk. XII had begun the year before."

from: https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Rolls-Royce_Engines:_Merlin

There's a slightly used one for sale here: https://spitfirespares.co.uk/power.html

pic:

hurricane 91.Merlin Carb 300.jpg


Ah, heck, just google 'merlin engine su carburettor.' I got 12,100 hits.

All I got on Claudel-Hobson was:

"
Claudel-Hobson was a series of British carburettors manufactured by the H. M. Hobson (Aircraft and Motor) Components Ltd.. First introduced in 1908, they were widely used in British car and aircraft engines in the early 20th Century. Applications included Sunbeam automobiles as well as Armstrong-Siddeley, Bristol, de Havilland, and Napier aircraft engines."

(no mention of RR; from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudel-Hobson)


Side Note: Looks like SU built a pump for the Merlins, too (how the Brits won the Battle with those is beyond me):

"Rolls-Royce wanted to use the speed-density method of controlling the fuel-air ratio. It found that the Skinners Union carburetor division of the Morris group had already manufactured a reciprocating swash-plate pump, although it was much too small for the purpose. Rolls-Royce then invited SU to produce a larger pump of the same design, and to develop a control system for it with Rolls-Royce. SU engineers came to the Rolls-Royce plant, and received engine specific data of what the fuel supply produce under all operating conditions. The volume of fuel pumped with the SU swash plate pump can vary from no fuel to full fuel by changing the angle of the swash plate, similar to the method used to control the pitch of a helicopter's rotor blades. In the case of the fuel pump, intake and exhaust manifold pressure, intake manifold temperature and engine speed combine to control the swash plate angle."

from: https://www.enginehistory.org/Accessories/HxFuelSys/FuelSysHx09.shtml


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twas_brillig

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Well, my question sure triggered a wondrous wandering! I ran across Miss Shilling a while back - she must have been a fascinating person: bought herself a motorcycle in 1923 when she was 14; electrical engineering degree in 1932 and masters in mechanical engineering in 1933. Raced motorcycles and cars (including the aforementioned AH Sprite in the 60s).
Regards the Toyota tranny: synchro first gear; no reliability issues with the o/d. The smoother shifting is a bonus (I understand that the 0-60 times cited in period magazines meant really thrashing the transmission of the day, so I would expect that the Toyota trans. would allow slightly more rapid real-life acceleration, as I used to shift the original tranny much more carefully than the Toyota. And the original transmission is stored and will be kept with the car.
I'd love the aesthetic of triple Webers, but (for the price), I'd be inclined to (a) convert the SU's to Megasquirt EFI or (b) buy junk DCOEs, gut them, and use them as throttle bodies for a Megasquirt EFI, with both conversions being 'stealthy' enough to allow the car to appear to be carburetted. Doug
 

Jerry

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I just drove an original BJ8 with 100K on the engine, and I could not tell any HP difference vs mine with 2" exhaust, hotter cam, and roller rockers. The serial number was within 600 cars of mine and seemed to have the same power. I think the 2 " exhaust has a chance of getting the hot stuff out the back of the car faster. By the way, the original car had a louder sound than mine also.

Jerry
 
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