What the heck is a Churchhill 0125

[Earl]

I am in the process of changing the TR4 rearend out of my 61TR3A for correct TR3 rear end. I've got the drums, and brakes off. I've disconnected the brake lines and the emergency brake cable. Next according to the book I have to remove the hubs and pull the axel shafts. To accomplish this I need a Churchhill 0125 and Churchhill 0126 tools. In the book these look like wheel pullers. ANY ADVICE PLEASE ON THIS WHOLE PROCESS? Thanks guys
Earl

 

[JamesWilson]

Michelotti_tr knows about this, and has discussed it on his website:

https://www.geocities.com/michelotti_tr/Hub_Puller_Use_Notes.pdf

I believe he's around the BCF regularly... you might drop him a private e-mail just to see if there's more he can say about it....

 

[Geo Hahn]

I don't think you need those tools for a TR3A/4 axles & hubs.

You can just withdraw the half-axle once you have remove the 4 bolts securing it (and after unbending the lock plates). Note the presence of shims on each side.

To open the hubs you will need an M86 tool or equivalent or a really big press and even then perhaps a bit of luck and a machinist who knows how to do this w/o ruining the hub.

I'm not clear on what yu're trying to do (been on the road in the TR4 all last week) but if you have a TR4 rear end and want a TR3 rear end I think you're going to need to swap the diff as the axle casings (and the half-axles) are of a different length.

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi Earl,

Like Geo, I'm not 100% certain what you are up to.
Please give us some more detail on what you are trying to accomplish and what parts you have to work with. Maybe we can offer more help.

I seem to recall previous post(s) where you mentioned having a complete TR4 live rear axle/diff assembly in your TR3, which would be 2" wider than the TR3 unit and I was concerned this would cause some problems with tire clearance, leaf spring mounts, etc.

So, are you replacing the entire rear axle/diff assembly? If so, those special tools might not be needed at all. It's simply a matter of unbolting the drive shaft and the u-bolts at the leaf springs, removing the limit straps that go over the axle tube on either side, removing the axle shaft/hub assemblies from either side and then sliding the remainder out from under the car. All this can be done without special tools.

Or, are you disassembling the rear axle/diff to take the diff itself out of the axle, to make some sort of swap of internal parts or to replace bearings and seals? If so things get quite a bit more involved, but Geo is right that there is no need to use a hub puller for this job (a diff case spreader might be needed, though) unless you are changing the outer, rear axle bearings and/or seals. As Geo mentionied, there are bolts (6 per side actually, Geo, on TR4s) on the backside of the brake backing plate that can be removed to allow hub and axle to be pulled out as a unit. Some precautions: Care must be given to keeping the sets of shims behind each brake backing plate in order (these set the axle end play, which needs to be correct and equalized side-to-side), and when sliding the axles in or out be careful not to damage the seal in the axle tube. Also, be a bit careful handling the hub/axle shaft assembly when it's off the car, especially the splines on the end that mesh to the differential itself.

But, let's step back a moment and look at the bigger picture. You're working on a TR4 axle assembly/diff, right? I see no reference to those Churchill tools in the TR4 workshop manual. I *do* see reference to S125 in the TR3 workshop manual, but it appears to be a special tool to *install* the splined hub for wire wheels and unique to certain, later TR3. A different tool is used to remove the splined hub, but isn't needed at all on TR4. So, part of the problem might be consulting the earlier manual to work on the later live axle assembly?

Just so you have the numbers, Churchill M86 or M86A is the tool to separate the TR4 rear hubs from the axle shafts (it's possible to do in a 20 ton press, as mentioned, but some hubs get damaged in the process). Churchill S101 is the case spreader tool, used to remove the differential assembly itself from within the diff housing (it's possible to make this tool from materials from a hardware store, however I need to caution that it needs to be used carefully to just slightly spread the diff case, overdoing it can bend or crack the case, and some folks manage to get the diff out without this tool). These are probably the two most necessary tools for work on the TR4 live axle assembly, but are only needed in certain circumstances. There are other special tools needed for work on the axles and diff, but they are more commonly found or "generic" items like a dial test indicator, bearing pullers/installers, etc.

If you are removing the differential itself, for some sort of internal parts swap, getting everything reinstalled and setup properly in terms of tolerances, preload and crown wheel/pinion gear mesh, etc., etc., is quite an involved and precise job. I'd not recommend it for most folks to try at home. Often the best local source for this sort of work is a heavy truck repair shop, since many trucks still use live axles similar to the old TR design.

P.S. There is a company that might be useful with some Churchill tools. https://www.britishtool.com/ used to be an advertiser here on BCF, but I don't see them right now. Good folks, but they didn't offer the M86 hub puller I needed, last time I checked with them.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Andrew Mace]

[ QUOTE ]
...But, let's step back a moment and look at the bigger picture. You're working on a TR4 axle assembly/diff, right? I see no reference to those Churchill tools in the TR4 workshop manual. I *do* see reference to S125 in the TR3 workshop manual, but it appears to be a special tool to remove the splined hub for wire wheels and unique to certain, later TR3....

[/ QUOTE ]You mean "earlier" TR3, don't you? Presumably this refers to the TR2 and early TR3 with wire wheels, before Triumph went to the later rear axle, Girling brakes, splined hub adaptors, etc.

Still, sometimes I suspect it might be easier to widen the rear fenders in a situation like this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

 

[Earl]

Alen you are correct about my prior post. That is the process I'm going through now, to replace the entire assembly. My TR3A TS60+++ currently has TR4 rear end. The TR4 rear end is 44" backing plate to backing plate. This was not a problem when I was running 4.5" wheels 20 years ago. With this current rebuild we have 5.5" wheels and have now developed a clearance problem. The decision we made is to go back to a TR3 rear end. We've finally acquired one and are starting the job of changing it out.
I referred to my TR3 manual and that's were I got off track with the idea that I need to pull the hub prior to taking the axel out. Thanks to you guys respones and a phone call to the Roadster Factory I realized what I need to do.
1. Disconnect the brake lines and emergenecy brake cable.
2. Unbolt the 6 bolts securing the backing plate.
3. Unbolt the drive shaft.
4. Remove the axel, hub, backing plate as one assembly
5. Unbolt from springs, and remove the check straps.
6. Slide the rear end right, drop free off frame and exhaust, slide left and drop out.

Revearse the process for the new rear end.

Thanks for all your help, I'll post when it's done to let you know how it went.
Thanks
Earl

 

[Geo Hahn]

Sounds like you've got it... you even make it sound easy.

 

[Alan_Myers]

[ QUOTE ]
You mean "earlier" TR3, don't you? Presumably this refers to the TR2 and early TR3 with wire wheels, before Triumph went to the later rear axle, Girling brakes, splined hub adaptors, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are right Andy. The service manual I was referencing is for "TR2, with TR3 supplement". The later 3s had the stronger axle which is more similar to TR4.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Earl]

Well Geo it wasn't easy, but it sure wasn't hard. From strat to having the rear end sitting on floor behind the car to 1 hour and 45 minutes. Pulling the axels turned into a very smooth operation. Had one little problem, about half the locks/keepers that were bent up to keep the baking plate bolts in place broke. So I'll need to order replacements prior to the reassembly. Thanks for everyone's advice
earl