I'm so mad right now I could scream.

[Guest]

Just got back from the machine shop. My engine is on the engine dyno, the guy is putting on the carbs (so I can have some time with it on the road this year). I got the bill - 3300 for all the labor. Sounds like a lot, but I had a lot done...

Looked more closely at the bill - no line boring. No cam bearings.

Seems there was a misunderstanding between the mechanic and the engine shop. I gave a sheet listing all I wanted to the mechanic - it never got passed on.

Now what on earth am I going to do. I'm too angry to think rationally right now. I want the car back, but I've got 10k in this engine right now, so I want it done right too...

Grrr. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/pukeface.gif

 

[michalotti_tr]

Sorry to hear about that.

I would make sure the mechanic got the problem fixed ASAP - it was his failure. Make him understand that you are not willing to wait much longer for the engine to be delivered. I will usually say something nice the first time, but if it's not taken care of promptly I won't hesitate to go ballistic if I think I'm getting B.S.ed

 

[trboost]

I would not be to happy either. He should have had a punch list of the required work & checked each one off as completed. This is not like forgetting to install the spin on oil filter adapter, it requires full dissasembly of the motor.
On the bright side, if the cam bores were in spec they worked very well and were pretty durable. Aggressive valve springs will accelerate wear but standard or slightly stiffer should work well. Worn bores will show up as low oil pressure reading at idle when hot.
Make him aware and try to work it in to the final mods of the car. When it's brought in for the SC & F/I if you feel it's needed.
To be honast, I think 10K for what you have had fabricated is not bad. Sure it's alot of green but you had a full custom engine done.

 

[Guest]

Mitch, 10k is just the engine work and parts for it, not any of the fabrication work, drivetrain changes, fuel system changes, frame reinforcement or anything else. I'm in for over 25k for that lot (plus car), and I still have the ECU to fit and some custom work for the s/c to have done.

My problem right now is that the mechanic who I took the car to to do all the work farmed the engine work out to a shop that only does race engines. Somewhere between him and the engine shop, the list of stuff I wanted doing to the engine got lost and I know full well that it's going to degenerate into a he said/she said situation.

So now I'm stuck. Do I have them disassemble the thing, line bore it and put it back together - the main issue here is the amount of time thats going to take - or do I just hope for the best. I bought a set of triple carbs just so I'd get some running out of it this year. The amount of running I'll have is diminishing rapidly.

I'm totally fed up right now. Anyone want to make me an offer on a practically rebuilt TR6.

 

[Brosky]

Alan, please consider the following:

The facts are that you presented a complete list of work to be done that was not subject to modification without your express written or verbal consent. Therefore any deviation by the repair shop is not acceptable and must be remedied to your satisfaction immediately.

Take an unemotional approach and go to the shop and respectfully request a meeting with the management and everyone involved. Next, request an immediate tear down to have the line bore and bearing installation done properly and install the bearings. If you don't do it now, despite the inconvenience, you will end up regretting that decision.

It's hard to keep the emotions out at this point in time, but this is purely a business transaction and must be treated as such, keeping your interests at the forefront.

Your engine must now take priority in their shop schedule.

 

[Russ Austin]

Alan; Bummer in the summer, I agree with Paul. I think that would be the course to take. Having been there myself on an engine rebuild for my 3, there were items that were completely missed. After fuming for a few hours I called back and made an appointment, met with the owner and mechanic and ironed things out.

Best of luck

 

[trboost]

Alan,

There's so much anticipation on a project like this that it's difficult to deal with set backs & mistakes. Every time you think your moving forward & you can see the light at the end of the tunnel some one turns the light off. This car is a "one of" and will encounter alot of problems. IT WILL BE WORTH IT IN THE END. If you have the money to invest in something that give you pleasure then it's worth it. Every time my car is down for repair I start to freak , I can only imagine how bad it is to be with out it in the height of the driving season, it sucks. The summers to follow will be great.

I think the first step is to aproach the mechanic and let him suggest a solution. Cam bearings are not a engine must have. They are good for saving a block with worn bores. My machine shop could not do the long bore needed & sent it out to a high end race shop with the proper machine. In anticipation of that rebuild I had called around and was amazed at how many shops could not do a line bore on a straight six.

I say move forward & drive the car with the understanding that this will be corrected if oil pressure problems show up. Find out what the measurements on the bores were or if the shop even took the time to check them.

 

[Brosky]

Mitch, while my heart agrees with you, my head and past knowledge gained from being in the engine repair business disagrees. There is never as good a time to fix a problem with an engine as when it is out of the car. Another week delay at this time will save a month of heartache in the future. Not to mention potential scratches, dents and leaks.

I can't tell you the times that techs have said over the years, "I wish I had fixed it while it was out and on the engine stand."

When I was promoted to service director at a large dealership years ago, my techs had a plaque engraved for me which had one of my favorite cliches on it:

"Why didn't we have the time to do it right the on first trip in, but now we have the time to do it over again?"

It was taught to me many years ago when I was turning wrenches and it was a great lesson then and still is now.

Alan, cut your potential losses and fix it correctly and completely while it's out.

 

[swift6]

With the amount of power that Alan is planning for his masterpiece to eventually produce. I would think that the cam bearings would be a particularly helpful items for any sort of useful longevity out of the engine.

I have to agree with the other statements about fixing it now. It would take less time now than when it would have to come backout of the car later.

I also have to agree with the advice about keeping your emotions out of it. It will be hard but don't let them see you upset. The moment you loose your cool you loose the upperhand and it will become a pissing contest. Scream into a pillow or something for a few minutes before you talk to them. If you keep your cool and press your case they will know you mean business and will come to an agreeable solution much quicker.

Mitch is also right that on projects like this there are bound to be occasional setbacks. You can plan your best to avoid them but if they are going to happen you can't stop them, only roll with them and continue on. It will all be worth it in the end. When you rush things you make mistakes and really regret letting your anxiousness get the better of you.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Guest]

Join the club, Alan. The only guys that don't seem to get screwed by a mechanic are those on the forum that are their own mechanic. It is really tough to get a good shop to do what you want and do it right. I have been taken advantage of so many times that I keep a jar of jelly in my cubby. I say talk to the shop and explain that anyone building an engine to this level of performance expects cam bearings. It is their job to break it back down and do it right. If I were you, I wouldn't settle for less at this point. I know it's tough and someone will have to take the hit but it shouldn't be you. It amazes me that this shop, knowing what you are going through, would let this slip.
Take em to task, bud. You will never be happy.


Bill

 

[Bruno_69z28]

At this point you have to think, what is going to make you happy. You’ve waited this long, a couple of weeks won’t matter. If the mechanic agrees he missed these two things, then he should correct them in a reasonable amount of time. If he says he never saw the list, prepare for battle. Or you can figure how much time he’ll have to spend to fix the problem, and ask for an adjustment in price. In the thirty plus motors I’ve rebuilt, I’ve only line-bored one (VW bug motor) and never had any problems. Cam bearings are almost always replaced due to the block being cleaned (“boiled”). The cleaning compounds used are not easy on bearings. Cam bearings would not be hard to replace at this time.

Bill

 

[Guest]

I pretty much agree with everything thats been said. I ought to get the bloody thing stripped down and done right.

Herein lie my problems though.

1. The original shop I dropped my car off is a small place, one wrench, one trainee. The owner is the guy doing the work on my car. He's clearly dropped the ball here, and I am furious. Up to now though he's been a nice guy - he's gone out of his way to be helpful, the stuff he's done is 1st rate - so I don't want to be a complete ass about what is probably a genuine mistake. Especially since my car is up on stands in his shop with no engine in.

2. He's going on vacation in 2 weeks. For a month. To Europe. If my engine isn't in in the next 2 weeks it's not going to go in until September. By that time I get (maybe) a month or two of driving out of it. The triple carbs were a total waste of $ and effort then.

3. It's unlikely the engine shop will be able to do a strip, bore and assemble in the timeframe that allows it to go in the car - i) they are busy, ii) they take a long time to do stuff, iii) it's technically not their fault so while sympathetic they don't have much vested, and iv) they have to send it out to a specialist for line boring anyway.

4. I have a short fuse. When I count to ten I usually make it to three. I'm not sure how calm I'll remain if things don't get resolved to my satisfaction, and as I already said the guy who dropped the ball has been pretty good all in all. I wanted the engine in and the car back six months ago. Waiting for custom parts was a big part of this problem though, and not his fault at all. He wants the car done - he needs the space...

I'll make some calls on Monday and we'll see how it plays out. I'm still dead unhappy though.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Guest]

Bruno - the car doesnt have cam bearings as standard. you have to line bore it to fit them. they are the ones from the spitfire engine istr.

 

[Bruno_69z28]

I’m curios, what type of bearing surface does the motor use for the cam?

Bill

 

[SCguy]

[ QUOTE ]
If my engine isn't in in the next 2 weeks it's not going to go in until September. By that time I get (maybe) a month or two of driving out of it. The triple carbs were a total waste of $ and effort then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to see the problem clearly... The carbs are unfortunate, but are really not part of the problem.

As one who has had issues with their mechanic (my restoration was in it's fifth year when I finally took my car back from my mechanic) I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m curios, what type of bearing surface does the motor use for the cam?

Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

Like all stock TR6 engines, nice smooth holes. It's the spit that came with cam bears, really bushes.

The TR6 block has to be line-bored to accept cam bearings. Not too many machine shops are set up to do this. It is desireable in a ultra-high performance engine with a modified cam and hard-working valve train. My engine is high performance, not ultra-. Cam bearings would be nice but I rarely redline.


Bill

 

[trboost]

The cam rotaes directly in the cast iron block. That's why it's only important if the bores are worn. The design for the "6" block never had cam bearings, this became a fix for motors with lots of miliage & egged bores. The consiquences of a sloppy cam bore are poor oil pressure & inaccurate valve adjustment. The oil delivery route begins at the oil pump, then the crank & next is the cam. A sloppy fit between the cam & block lets the oil squirt out before it gets to the head. I know several owners with highly modifed motors with over 100k that never used cam bearings. They are only needed to correct a problem & in my opinion add little durability over the original design. I did it on my motor simply because I asked the machine shop to specificaly measure it and let me know the spec. Since it was out of round it was a necessary fix. My original engine suffered from chroinc low oil pressure so I was suspect from the beginning. When I assembled the last engine it was my goal to make sure every thing in the motor got lubed.

Paul & Swift make a valid point about fixing what's not right now. The problem is that we don't know if the block needs them. Mechanics that take on projects like this are few and far between. The prospect of a challenge, the money & doing something cool gets the ball running, but it's very common for his enthusiasm & yours to NOT remain at the same level. As problems and delays continue this turns in to a PIA for him & he starts to rush & miss things just to get it out of his shop & get paid. They even begin to think they didn't charge enough for the amount of headaches & time this would take. Remember this guy still needs to make a living on a daily basis.

The reality is that your so deep in this car with this mechanic that no matter what you need him. It would be very tough to find someone to pick up where he left off. Bite the bullet and ride it out. If this summer is not going to happen then let it go & make sure it's ready for 07.

If you have the money & desire , buy a "6" beater to have fun with this summer & sell it next year. It's not that uncommon to have an extreme version & a daily beater of a car you love.

 

[Guest]

This is the last TR I'm owning, regardless of whether I keep it or sell it. I'm going back to German cars - they might be pricey, but at least I can find places to actually work on them within a reasonable drive. They don't (usually) spew oil over the driveway either.

I bought the -6 as a toy, because i) I always wanted one, and ii) last summer I really wanted a toy. SWMBOs beetle wasn't cutting it as a fun drive - we didn't chip it or fix the suspension yet (plus its heavy) - and the Disco is a total white elephant.

I still want a toy. This was meant to be a project for the winter, and was supposed to be something cool, not a cash sink that will drag on for the rest of my bloody life.

I hate it when things don't go right. I wish I'd just paid the bill rather than looking at it. I'd never have known and wouldn't be wasting my Saturday obsessing about what to do...

 

[tomshobby]

I do not know about where you live but Consumer Protection is pretty good for these things here in Wisconsin. If all else fails it might be worth considering.
Calm discussions are the best if they can work. It is not a good thing to have an angry person working in an engine.

 

[4aKen]

"Arrgh...
I hate my car and want to get rid of it.
Must be at the halfway point."

Was that your signoff before this experience?

Reading the guys responses to this problem it sounds like it is debatable as to the work you requested should have been done. It sounds like your mechanic turned the machining over to an excellent shop (specializing in race prep engines). I'm sure (well, sorta sure)that the tech made sure all components were well within spec to support the new/upgraded components.

That being said I'd certainly inform your mechanic of your concern and insist that if there is any problems that he pull the engine (not you) and make it right.

As far as your German car observations, I've owned 7, two 911s and a 7 series BMW...a money pit that never ended and a big loss on sale. I'm beginning to get mad just thinking about the BMW and that service department...my dog better get out of my way.