Starter Help ASAP!.....Here we go again....

[R6MGS]

A few months ago I posted about the starter getting caught in the flywheel on the 61 A.....After cleaning the ground strap the problem stopped and the stater seemed to have more punch.....Well today it got stuk again, except instead of in the driveway it got stuck in the mall parking lot. My usual push in first gear and pop the clutch trick is proving useless - it must be stuck real good......The last time I posted about this someone mentioned that there is a screw on the side of the starter I can use to back this off and free the thing up? I'd hate to have to have it towed, the mall is only a few blocks from my house...Anyone got any other ideas? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

Thanks

 

[tomkatb]

I have done this many times. I bought my car from a fellow who could not figure this out.

The trick is:

Put the car in 4th. Get Bruno and Guido to rock the car to the REAR, not forward. Rocking forward or trying to push start makes it worse. Continue rocking until it comes out. If after 10 minutes, remove the two bolts holding the starter in and rock some more. When the starter falls out put it back and tighten it up.

Get used to it as it will get worse.

Things that do not work:

There is a bolt (square 3/8” I think) on the end of the starter shaft near the oil filter. That in theory can be turned clockwise to disengage the starter. Due to the placement of the oil filter I could not get to the bolt. One must use a socket, 8 point, and well, I could not do it with a box end wrench.

Turn the crank backwards with the nut on the crank. I was not man enough. Besides, mine is awful to get to.

Replace the starter often until it stops. I had to put four in and a ring gear before I gave up. Get a gear reduction starter and end the misery forever.

Larry

 

[AlanT]

There should be a part of the armature sticking out close to the oil filter housing. Probably 3/8" square drive. Put a wrench on it and try to turn it. It will only go one way. Then you will hear a click as the starter drive disengages. But it WILL do it again if the problem is not corrected. Sometimes it is so bad that the started has to be unbolted.

Alan T

 

[tomkatb]

The trick is to turn the motor backwards about 20-30 degrees.

Easy to say, kind of tough to do. Mine is an early B. Doesn't the A have a hand crank?

Larry

 

[R6MGS]

Yup, it does have a crank!...I never thought of that....It's still sitting at the mall(some workers in the area said they'd watch it until I get off work and can come recover it)....I' am going to keep printing all the responses until I leave, so I'll have a few things to try....Thanks for the help!

BTW: I am going to have the starter rebuilt/replaced after this.....I've had more than enough of this, hopefully that will do it.
Larry, the gear reduction starter....does it need a different ring gear or will it work with my original....I really don't want to start messing with that if i don't have too.

 

[DrEntropy]

The hand crank will be useless for disengaging the pinion gear from the ring gear as it only allows you to turn the engine the "proper" direction. "Rocking the car" in fourth, back-and-forth *should* work. THEN use the hand crank to start it... straight home and R&R starter. The gear reduction unit for the car should be a "bolt-on, start 'er up" operation... unless the ring gear is FUBAR'd too. Good luck!

 

[Matt Mugherini]

The gear reduction starter works with the original ring gear- it just engages from the front rather than the rear.

 

[jlaird]

Ahh, that's the trick. Just like haveing a new gear on the flywheel as the teeth on that side have never been used.

 

[Steve_S]

The starter should not jam, and in normal situations does not jam. Replacing it with a modern unit is just putting a band aid on a larger issue. Lucas starters are very durable pieces of machinery and will likely last for decades. The modern starter will also sound very "un-MG-like".

 

[R6MGS]

Well I got it home.....Was able to back off the starter with the bolt on the end of the shaft....Came out nice and easily. Now I am left wondering what to do....Doesn't sound like this is going to be a straight foward solution....Tomorrow is grocery day and the car will be on the road all day...I showed my wife how to back it off using the shaft bolt and gave her the correct wrench....Hopefully she won't have anymore problems....That should get her to the weekend and I'll have to do something about it.

 

[Steve_S]

Just don't use the starter and she won't get stuck. Once the car is warm, crank starting is very easy. And she will get a LOT of attention not only crank starting a classic car, but being a woman doing it!

 

[tomkatb]

The reason this happens is sort of complicated. MG used cheap brass bushing instead of bearings in the starter. Therefore the shaft is sort of loose relatively speaking. Kind of making it sort of out of alignment.

In a B no new starter has been made since the 60’s. Therefore only rebuilds are available. In an A you can get a new starter. Unfortunately there is another issue. The “crash” starter tends to chew up the ring gear by design. Part of your gear is chipped off. I have a picture of mine.

So maybe a new starter or rebuilding your old one will fix this permanently. The odds are a little better in an A than an early B. Maybe if it is the ring gear or the bolt holes in the housing it won’t,

I hope you get lucky. I installed 4 starters and a ring gear and it never got better. One starter was supposed to be NOS.

The Gear reduction starter fixed it.

I am a no modern changes kind of guy like Steve. I took the electronic ignition off my car. However, after 3-4 trips to the parking lot with a wife and two kids, well it was too much.

I got a good discount when I bought this car as the gear was stuck. This probably saved me $1500 when I bought it because the DPO was clueless.

Hope you get lucky.

Larry

Installation of the Gear reduction starter is easy.

 

[Limey]

I used to have the same problem with my '64 many years ago. The problem is not just the starter - it is also the ring gear. Replacing the starter may solve the problem for a while - but it will eventually return unless you replace the ring gear as well.

The newer starter (gear reduction) may NOT be a solution - The old "bendix" starter engages the drive from the rear, the newer "pre-engaged" starter (like the geared version) engages from the front (I think), in which case, you need a newer style ring gear which has the tapered teeth on the other side - BUT they are different diameters!

 

[R6MGS]

It was good today....Think I'll remove the starter on the weekend(if it's not raining /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif) and inspect the ring gear...clean the starter shaft and reinstall for now.

BTW: I believe there should be a cover that covers the starter shaft where it come out to engage the ring gear....The cover is held in place by 3 screws on the bellhousing....MOSS does not sell this part, and I just checked all my spare tranny's hopeing to find one still there, but no luck...Anyone got one kickin around?

 

[tomkatb]

Limey

Yes the gear reduction starter enters the ring gear from the other side. This side has no wear as it has never been used. I was concerned as the teeth are not tapered on this side for the starter to fit in, but the starter gear is. I can report mine is fine. Keep in mind the seller on eBay has sold hundreds, perhaps thousands that engage the wrong side of the starter in most cars made before 1970. This is the original Kettering design from 1910.

While a concern I choose to ignore it. Worst case is it wears the ring gear. In my case I have a new ring gear that would not work with the old starter. It can be a ring gear, poor starter or bolt hole alignment or a combination of issues.

 

[jlaird]

Ring gears are like 60 bucks and 30 to install professionaly.

Big deal?

 

[R6MGS]

Yeah, but What have you gotta remove to get to it?

 

[jlaird]

Engine, about an hour out and maybe 2 1/2 back in.

 

[R6MGS]

Not the way I pull engines.....The "might as well"'s will easily turn that into a major resto.

 

[jlaird]

Oh, guess I mistakely assumed that all was restored and clean and stuff. Yep, could take months.