TR2/3/3A Newbie TR3 intro w/ questions

[mrv8q]

Hello, listers, my name is Kevin, living in Los Angeles, and I've recently acquired a 1960 TR3A, (apparently, like nearly all of them, sitting in a garage for nearly 25 years).

I got it at a probate sale from the original owner; (just a half-block from my house!); it came w/ the original warranty, paperwork, receipts from over the years, all original tools, tops, side curtains, etc. No apparent rust in the usual places. The battery had been pulled, but the oil was full, brake and clutch resevoir full, and water in the radiator. The engine turns easily with the hand crank.

I've yet to start it; but so far I've drained the tank, (nothing too horrible inside), rebuilt the fuel pump, changed the oil and oil filter, and started to drain the radiator and replace the hoses. I've read the requisite books, received the catalogs from the "Big Three", and joined S.C.T.O.A. Perhaps I should say here that I owned a succession of 3 Datsun Roadsters, but over 20 years ago...

So now the usual questions, in no apparent order. Since it last ran in 1984, at the latest, what's the deal with unleaded gasoline; lead substitute, etc.? Is 24 the correct battery code? Assuming it starts, any recommendations from there? I plan to tackle the hydraulics; send out to Apple Hydraulics for rebuild, or just buy new? After that, what type of hydraulic fluid? Tire tips/size for the steel wheels? How badly has water damaged the engine inside? Any opinions will be welcome!

My previous experience has been on the Audifans.com forum for Audi V8 Quattros for the past seven years, and a good group it has been. This site is very impressive with it's great look and depth of forums and quality respondents... A tip of the hat to Basil! Thanks for looking, and keep those answers coming!

 

[jayhawk]

Congrats-- I am also relatively new and have benefitted greatly from this group. Got my '60 TR3 last May-- it had mostly sat for 20+ years but at least had been driven 300 miles during that time. Started with brakes/lines/master cylinder (bought new wheel cylinders and master, new brake lines). Then to carbs and a general tightening/check of all bolts/nuts, etc. Had lots of little stuff. Now working on the body to get ready for paint. (by the way also had Audi's and now have a Passat and my other VW toy) What are your car's colors? Got a hard top? Side curtains OK?

 

[sammyb]

There's a lot of debate on using lead substitute, but I'll convey the feelings of two SAE Master Mechanics I know -- both say:

Unless you plan on driving your TR3 daily, and you're going to be doing many thousands of miles per year, just use regular unleaded and you'll be fine. They've been inside hundreds of old engines running on unleaded, and they have yet to see one with significant wear on the valve seats. They both have old cars, and even drove them daily w/o lead substitute. (The comment was: other engine components will need rebuilding before the unleaded gas takes any toll.)

But if it makes you feel good, and you don't care about the extra $1.50 for the substitute, use it.

Now, as for hydraulic fluid -- you can flush the whole system and use DOT5, which I think I'm using in mine now. I had a leak w/ DOT3 and it took out the firewall paint!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tire size for steel discs: Metric 165/15" you can get them for $35 each at Pep Boys.(At least I did about 4 years ago when I had my '59 w/disc wheels.)

TR3s are pretty robust, but if the car was outside, check all the wiring connections -- clean them, so there's good contact.

You definitely want to open the float bowls of the SUs and clean them out. They are prone to clogging up. Shoot some carb spray at the carb pistons to make sure they move freely.

Other than that...as my mechanic friends would say: "Fire her up, see if she's a runner."

 

[sp53]

Hello new tr3 owner, I am kinda new to the forum myself , but I have been driving the same tr3 since 1972. Drove it yesterday. Anyways, it sounds like you made a great purchase( you did not say what you paid, I paid 800 hundred and it was one of the nicer ones in the Puget Sound area, circa 1972. Anyways after sitting for 25 years, what I would do is take off the valve cover and then remove the plugs so I can see inside the engine. Next, I would get a case of oil and fill the engine with oil (pouring over the rockers) right to the top of the rings being careful not to overfill and get some on the valves. Let it sit for a couple of days and gently turn it over by hand, every so often, making sure the oil moves around the rings and gets everywhere and making sure the rockers are moving, if not the timing chain broke) This will get oil on the rings, bearing, lifters, chain yada-yada-yada….. Then drain that out and fill with the normal amount of oil and filter, about six quarts (10x40). Probably, while I was messing around getting everything oiled, I would clean the points, set them at about .014 clean the carb bowls and fill them. Then give a general look around for broken stuff, fan belt and hoses ect….. Check that TDC occurs and is kinda close, put some water and fuel in-- 92 Chevron or 92 Union76 --and fire that mother up.

George

 

[MGTF1250Dave]

Aloha and welcome to the BCF,

The previous posts have offered good advice. I'll concur with Sam's advice, you can use unleaded fuel and probably go for sometime before any head work is needed. Lead additives are readily available and easy to use, so if it makes you more comfortable do so. In the future when you need to rebuild the head, you can go with the stellite faced valves, new valve guides, etc.

Rebuilding the wheel, clutch slave and master cylinders is fairly straight forward. Rebuild or replace which ever seems best for you. I did it my self with the help of a machine shop like Apple Hydraulics to insert sleeves in the bores. I personally use DOT 5 in my '58 TR3A.

With the hand crank, you can check valve operation. Easier if the spark plugs are removed. With a battery, you can turn over the engine fast enough to develop sufficient oil pressure to get a reading on the gauge. Nice to know if the oil pump works when you fire it up.

You will probably need to rebuild the carburetors as most of the fiber washers and cork seals have perished. Much like, as you mentioned the rubber hoses.

In addition to looking at the wiring connections, check the harness to make sure small creatures have not chewed it up. Electrical fires can ruin your day and car.

These cars are very resilient, so with new fluids, clean up and TLC it will come to life. Good luck and congratulations on your TR3A,

Safety Fast,
Dave

 

[Geo Hahn]

What a great find... sounds like you're well-organized and patient.

As already noted, TRactor engines are incredibly robust so if it develops oil pressure then running it will reveal what all neds attending to.

165/15 tires are available but selection is not great... in just the past 3 years we've lost my two favorites: Michelin XZX and Dunlop SP20. When you tell them the tire size they'll assume it is for a VW Bug.

I too use DOT5 brake fluid but there is by no means universal agreement that it's the way to go. Don't forget to check the oil in the rear shocks -- the ride is a real buckboard if those aren't topped up. Most use either the shock oil sold by the big 3 or motorcycle fork oil.

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi and welcome!

Sounds like a great find! I hope to someday have a 3A to keep my 4 company (right after I win the lottery!)

I found myself in a similar situation with a motorcycle last summer. It's a 1980 and has all of 7500 miles on it. I started rebuilding the brakes and replacing all rubber lines. It is water cooled, so needed attention there, too, although it wasn't as bad as I feared. I found a lot of congealed gunk in the bottom of the engine, too.

You mentioned some concern about the water jacket of the 3A's engine. It's not likely a big problem. You might just use a garden hose initally, before starting the engine. Run some water through to see what comes out. Just let it run through, don't try to force the full 30-50 psi approx. of most household systems into the radiator, etc. TR3s use a relatively low 4 psi coolant system. Be sure to open the heater valve to let water circulate there, too.

Later, after the engine is started, a more thorough warm flush with a proper system cleaner might be a good idea. Be sure to replace the coolant right away, it's a lubricant for the water pump too, and who knows what's in there now! Incidentally, the most likely rust spot in the TRactor engine is the figure 8 gaskets under the cylinder liners *if* steel gaskets are used. However, most use copper without any problem. If the engine has never been apart, it's most likely copper in there.

If the heater core or the radiator have any build up inside or any small leaks, you'll be happy to know both are pretty easily repaired and rebuildable by most and good radiator shop.

It might be a good idea to check that a thermostat is in place, and, if you wish, test it in a pan of water with a thermometer, to make sure it's working properly. These cars must have a thermostat in place, and hopefully it's the "sleeved" type, that properly covers the bypass once warmed up and open. It sounds like you've already started replacing all the rubber hoses before driving the car much. Good idea!

I agree the brake system should be gone through before the car goes on the road. Be sure to replace all rubber parts. They are no longer trustworthy. If master and slave cylinders are usable, i.e. no pitting in the bores, by all means rebuild instead of sending them off or replacing. In the front calipers, it's possible the pistons are pitted, but unlikely the bores are a problem. I recommend stainless steel replacement pistons.

Yes, grounds should be checked throughout the electrical system. It's often enough to just pull apart the connections and reconnect, to make sure all is working. Any dim bulbs might indicate a socket needs cleaning, too. I hadn't thought about critters chewing on the wiring, as someone else mentioned, but I'm sure anything could happen over the course of 25 years storage!

There are many grease zerks on the car, some in places not found on more modern cars. For example, I think you'll find one on the parkign brake cable, another at brake cable pivot by the rear axle, two outboard on the rear axle just behind the brake drum backing plate and three on the drive shaft. Oh, and I'm not sure about the steering on a TR3, my TR4 has a grease zerk on the rack & pinion.

Others suggest some extra oiling of the engine, since it's been sitting so long. I think that's a good idea too. If it were me, I'd be tempted to pull off the rocker shaft and arms, lift out each pushrod and cam follower one at a time (to avoid any possibiliy of mixing them up) and poor a few spoons full of something like Lucas Oil Treatment or STP right onto the camshaft lobes. The lobes/followers are probably the single most likely areas to wear rapidly and damage in an engine that's been sitting so long. A little, thinner oil in the cylinders to ease the piston rings back into use would be good, too. Then, it might be useful to disonnect the ignition, crank the motor with the starter a little to try to get a little juice flowing inside the engine! And, it would be good to drop the oil pan to clean out any sludge the might have settled, before turning the engine over. Watch the oil pressure closely once the engine is started. It should settle to about 30 psi at idle once warm.

There are "engine flushes" that I have mixed thoughts about. First, they require you run the motor for a short while with the flush replacing some of the oil normally in there. So, essentially you are running a lot of cleaners or detergents and a very lightweight luricant for a short period of time. After a drain, you replace with oil. I am concerned these flushes might move grit and dirt into delicate areas, such as bearing surfaces, that was normally be trapped elsewhere and not be a problem. I also am concerned that some scoring or other problems might result just from using the cleaner, predominantly, as a lubricant for even a short period of time. Also, it's pretty strong stuff and I wonder if it might attack sealer on gaskets from the inside. Finally, the oil that replaces it gets diluted and should also be replaced quickly, I think. Perhaps even two oil changes should be done in quick succession.

You mentioned joining your local Triumph club and that's a great move. Go to the next meeting and ask around for folks who have cars like yours, and see if they would take a look at yours with their experienced eye, and help you spot any concerns. Most will happily do so for the chance to ogle another TR inside and out, or it might cost you a beer and a couple slices of pizza.

As to unleaded gas, don't worry about it. You coiuld likely run the car for 50,000 + miles on unleaded and not notice anything othere than having to adjust the valves a little extra. Eventually, if and when you rebuild the head, have the right kind of valves, valve guides and possibly valve seat inserts put in and it will be ready for another 100,000 miles. I wouldn't bother with lead substitute. You might need to retard the timing a little, to prevent pre-ignition. But, it also depends on the compression ratio of the car. Triumph played around with different compression ratios and even offered compression lowering kits for cars used in countries where gas was poor quality. You might want to try to determine the compression ration on your car... a pressure test on the cylinders would also tell you see if they are all fairly egually balanced. Do further pressure testing, or have it done, if you want to check piston rings, head gasket and the valves.

I did compression tests on the motorcycle I mentioned, and found that despite the low mileage, I probably should rebuild the heads. The valve springs have lost some of their tension, just sitting for all these years. I've not seen this as a common problem on TRs, however.

Heck, you probably want to get out and drive it a little, right? Well, just take care of the safety and critical issues first, then have some fun and fine tune as you go along!

Enjoy!

Alan

 

[TRTEL]

Sounds like you got yourself a great car. To all the other good advice I would only add on longtime sitters or brand new engines we would pull out the distributor and the shaft and place in a dummy shaft (w/o the camshaft drive gear) and chuck it up to a 1/2" drill and run the oil pump till the galleys are all full (and it shows pressure). That way when you start cranking it over on the starter the bearings have oil immediately. My only concern over having water in the block for that long is the figure 8 gaskets. they're only steel and may have rusted through. The only way you'll know is to keep checking your oil during first weeks of use. You'll never see water that will just boil/evaporate off, but glycol will slowly build up as a milky emulsion over time. If they do leak the alternative is at least a minor/major rebuild eg pulling the liners with the shortblock and crank in the car. Doable but not easy. good luck!

 

[MDCanaday]

Kevin , it sounds cool, no doubt you are now driving this little jewel some. Might I suggest as a saftey measure getting 2 turn signal scockets for the front lamps and trade them for the rear(replacing the single filaments with dual)Then its simple to add a wire from the brake lamp to the inner lamp bright filament, yeilding 4 brake lamps for saftey sake. Since I have seen several good TR3's badly damaged/ destroyed in the lasr few years, I think this is the smart money move....
MD(mad dog)

 

[Banjo]

Kevin, Welcome to the psych ward. hope you enjoy your TR for Years to come. All the above ideas are fine. Some maybe a little over cautious but that never hurts. My take on the hydraulics is a little different. what happens over time in a british system is this, the brake fluid will absorb water from the atmosphere and when the system is in disuse the water will seperate from the fluid and collect in low spots in the system I.E. wheel cylinders or the bottom of the Master cylinder. and if left long enough will cause pitting. also the seals will turn to a tarry goo. they may work for a short while but they WILL fail. Rebuilding these components is very simple (even the master cylinder) but if there is any pitting ,then I would go to a place like Apple Hydraulics to have them resleeved or just exchange them for already rebuilt units. Make sure to flush all the lines and replace anything rubber,like the hoses, in the brake and clutch systems. Personally I will only use Dot 4(castrol GT LMA) brake fluid. for several reasons. the natural rubber seals in a british brake system require a certian amount of swelling for a proper seal. I subscribe to "the goldilocks theory" of brake fluid. Dot 3 absorbs too much moisture and will cause the seals to swell too much, causing the brakes to drag and eventually fail. silicone (dot 5) brake fluid does not absorb any moisture,the seals do not swell at all and the result is possible leakage. (Apple will not warranty part agenst leakage if you use silicone fluid) also silicone is very difficult to bleed and will suspend air if it is not poured carefully. Dot 4 is a low moisture absorbtion (LMA) formula that is perfectly matched to british systems and it behaves like any conventional fluid. Silicone(dot 5) does work and it does have it's advantages so don't rule it out but do some research before using it This is just my opinion and is by far not gospel so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[mrv8q]

Thanks, all, for the time taken, with this and other posts, which have been equally helpful. I'm going to concentrate on the cooling system first, and then on to the hydraulics.
Kevin 60 TR3A #58370

 

[TR3driver]

[ QUOTE ]
silicone (dot 5) brake fluid does not absorb any moisture,the seals do not swell at all

[/ QUOTE ]

This was true for some very early (not DOT approved) formulations of silicone brake fluid, but no one has made it like that for many years. All brake fluids bearing the DOT 5 certification must be tested for seal swelling activity.

 

[TR3driver]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello, listers, my name is Kevin, living in Los Angeles, and I've recently acquired a 1960 TR3A,

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Kevin, have you visited either of the LA area TRiumph clubs? We'd love to have you, even if you don't chose to join. Both clubs meet once a month, 7:30 PM at Maggie's Pub in Santa Fe Springs. TRSC on the 4th Tues and SCTOA on the last Wed of every month (except Dec and sometimes Nov).

Write me at tr3driver@comcast.net if you need more information.