Richard Goods Triple Carb intakes. How good?

[skikir]

I am planning to get Richard Goods Triple Carb intakes and was wondering how good are they. Has anyone put these on with out any other modifications and how good have the run just by them selves. I really don't want to make a lot of modifications and am looking for some simple bolt on performance. On my upcomming rebuild I will mill the head and install a milde cam but I am wonder how these run just by them selves for now.

 

[Guest]

I have had Richard's triple setup on my basically stock TR6 for 2 years now. The only other mods were dual sport exhaust, hot coil and roller rockers. The HP increase was noticeable, but not the fire-breathing setup you may think you will get. I am in the process of totally reworking my head and putting in Richard's street cam, amongst other things. The setup is good (no pun intended) but the additon of headers can be a challenge to get the proper seal. The triple intake is well designed but again getting the proper intake/exhaust gasket to seal is a challenge. The direction you are headed is a good (again the pun) start but not the ultimate street setup without "going into the engine". Good luck.

PS, I used ZS carbs and have no complaints.
PPS, Be prepared to spend some dough when the whole thing is done.

Bill

 

[LastDeadLast]

I second what Bill is saying. On a stock motor, you're really not going to get a huge increase in power. This mod, like almost all others, get progressively better once other things like cam, exhaust and compression are tweaked. I think that the changes that Bill is planning will really wake his car up.

Also, the carbs need to be in real good shape. So I would plan to have them rebuilt at the very least.

On the bright side of things, with my electric fan setup, you can actually hear the intake, and it sounds great. Another point that's not brought up much but was very important to me is that is looks like a "period" modification.

But most important.. it looks so, so cool!

 

[71tr]

skikir,
I'll second Shannon's opinion. I have seen his car and even driven it. It's a sweet ride and the triple intake looks cooler than anything originally designed for these cars. Just as all parts seem to find there way to the marketplace there is a used GoodParts triple setup available on ebay.

 

[Guest]

To expand on my second phase of improvement, the head is at CDA Machine getting a total rework, along with Richard's intake being ported to match. The TRF head will be shaved to achieve a 9.5:1 compression ratio along with improved valve springs, chrome-moly connecting rods and everything flowed to match the 1.55 roller rockers. The Falcon headers are being JetHot coated for improved heat retention, the 16" electric fan is mounted on the radiator. Richard's street cam is in the box waiting to be installed as soon as I can get the darn oil seal sleeve off the crank (got a tool coming in from NAPA). Hope to be rolling by Thanksgiving. Oh, and Shannon, the carbs are being re-rebuilt by Gary Martin to concours condition.

Bill

 

[Andy Blackley]

Bill: This same thread is also runing on the Triumph Enthusiats BBS. One post there says that they needed to fit a much uprated fuel pump. Did you have to do this too?
I am following these threads carefully as this is a mod I'd like to do on my 250. Here is part of a thread that appeared recently on the 6Pack Technical Forum:



Joined: May 29, 2005
Posts: 5
Location: United States

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm also using the GP3 Camshaft along with a triple ZS set up and ram air intake with a remote air filter. I am very happy with it. If your fairly low in altitude then the stock B1AF needles supposedly work pretty well. I live at 5,000 feet and go up to play in the mountains and canyons. I had to find a different needle for my car as the B1AF's were running to rich with the triple carbs. Once that was sorted then the car became really fun.

I have found that the CD type carbs are better for my driving as I can go from 5,000' to 7,500', 10,000' or more, in less than an hour and the CD type carbs seem to be a bit more tolerant of the altitude change than webers. (I am part of the group that brought many of you low land types to Breckenridge (9,000') in 2001 for VTR).

you can see my set up at...

https://www.triumphowners.com/79

Shawn
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wishboneclassics
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Joined: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 8


PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
We use and really like Richard Good's triple Stromberg setup. A number of our customer engines are running these carbs. The main benefits are you retain a stock like appearance, the manifolding is greatly improved, and throtle response is REALLY improved. How much power you can make with the triple Strombergs is really down to what other engine components you choose. So go for the triple Strombergs, it is probably the best all around carburettor setup for the TR6 available on the market. I do not use Richard's ram air setup though, although a few customers have purchased it on their own. I prefer individual K&N filters with shorty stacks inside the filter to improve air flow.

I also second the recommendation to use Jeff Palya for carb rebuilds. I have been supplying Jeff with his carburettor parts for years, so I know he uses quality rebuild kits and he is very comprehensive in what he replaces. The micro polishing process he uses is amazing, your carbs will look fantastic after they have been micro polished by Jeff.

Here is a good photo of one of our customer's cars with Good's triple stromberg manifolds, and carbs rebuilt by Jeff Palya. Quite nice!



Have a good weekend everyone!

Kai

--
Kai M. Radicke
Wishbone Classics
* British Car Parts *
www.wbclassics.com
Ph: 215.945.7250
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The triple Stromberg setup is almost exactly what the engine wants for carb size.

Do the math and please check it carefully, I often make math errors.

The intake valves are 1.443" in diameter (or slightly more). The area is Pi (I'll use 3.14 for Pi) times the square of the radius , 1.443 / 2 = 0.1725, multiply by 0.1725 = 0.520, multiply by 3.14 = 1.634 square inches, intake valve area. 1.634 * 6 valves = 9.807 square inches total intake valve area. The engine is restricted by the intake valves as to how much air can enter.

The 175 Stromberg carbs are not really 1 and 3/4 inches in diameter through the entire bore. The actual size is 1 and 5/8" or 1.625" carb diamater that allows air to pass through to the engine. Area of carb intake is 1.625 / 2 = 0.8125, multiply by 0.8125 = 0.660, multiply by 3.14 = 2.073 square inches times two carbs = 4.146 square inches total carb intake area.

Compare 4.146 square inches combined carb intake area, to 9.807 square inches combined intake valve area and you see, the engine is starved for air with the stock two carb setup. Add a third stock carb 4.146 + 2.073 = 6.219 square inches combined.

Of course everyone knows that the intake valve is only open every other revolution so therefore the carb setup utilizing three stock Strombergs is adequate. The stock two carb setup is certainly not enough air-flow for the stock engine. Without making any other changes, just by adding an extra stock Stromberg carb, the engine can breath much better. About as much as it would be able to given even larger carbs.

 

[LastDeadLast]

Stock pump here... runs great to 6000rpm now that I have the Mallory ignition installed. Maybe his pump was bad?

I've been thinking of going eletric...but at this point, I don't see a big benefit.

 

[arbs_53]

I have just installed Richard's triple carb set-up on my TR250 and now that I have found the source of a vacuum leak, I am very pleased with the set-up. His manifolds are a work of art, IMHO. However, one thing I did notice is that the middle carb manifold sits slightly higher than the other two, which will impart more strain and therefore more wear on the carb bushings than it normally would. An easy fix will be to elongate the mounting hole. Other than that, this is one screamin' set-up. I have done the other mods to the motor to take full advantage of the extra carburation: GP-2 cam, 9.5:1 milled head ported, polished and flow-bench tested, etc. which made the switch necessary.
As for the Z-S carbs, I want to let everyone know what a good experience I had with Jeff Palya (paltech1@hotmail.com) mentioned in Andy's thread above. I sent my two original carbs to him to be refurbished and it's amazing how they came back to me. They had been sitting in a plastic tote in my cellar for nearly ten years and the carb bodies had some kind of mold or something growing on them. I cleaned them as best I could with mineral spirits and they came back to me so that they were virtually unrecognizable. He also supplied a third carb from a TR250 to complete the set. He milled the needle seats now I can adjust fuel adjustment, which anyone who owns a TR250 knows, they weren't originally designed to do. It's a bit more of a bother to have to dismantle the carb to make adjustments, but at least I can and I still have the original C3150 carbs on the car. His help in trying to determine the cause of my high idle problem was reassuring to say the least-a vacuum leak at the manifold gasket caused by PO (present owner!) inattention (I missed tightening a manifold bolt) and manifold bolts that needed to be milled to account for different flange thicknesses on the intake and exhaust manifolds. With some judicious use of high temp silicone sealer my engine now idles smoothly without the popping sounds I had earlier. I am for the first time this summer (fall?) looking forward to driving the little beast. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

 

[LastDeadLast]

Jeff Palya did my carbs too.. they look beautiful to say the least. As stated before, great for technical support.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
With some judicious use of high temp silicone sealer.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, what exactly did you use (brand) as a high temp sealer and where exactly did you place it? Are you saying that you were able to add a sealer around the exhaust manifold? I am trying to deal with an exhaust blow-by and have as yet not decided on which gasket material to use. I had the manifold shaved but still anticipate some blow-by when I put it all back together. I noticed that the header flange (stainless steel) and intake flange (aluminum) were the same thickness when first installed but in my zeal to get a good tight seal, I really torqued the little brackets down and the intake flange actually had noticeable dimples in them where the aluminum "gave" and the steel didn't. The little brackets have play in them and the wobble fit allowed the aluminum to dimple.

Bill

 

[arbs_53]

Bill,
This must be a common problem with this set-up as Jeff Palya said he had to deal with it on his TR250 as well (Falcon headers and triple manifold). He mentioned he had to use some silicone sealant and I adapted his advice to my situation. And I'm not 100% sure everything I do is the correct and best way to do it. So please keep that in mind.
First I used my dial calipers to measure the differences in flange thicknesses and determined I needed to grind about .022 from one of the nibs on the back of those manifold clamps and used my dremel to get as close as I could reasonably expect to get.
Then, I used Mega Black O.E.M. Hi-Temp Silicone Gasket, Type 998 made by VersaChem on the manifold gasket I got from TRF which is noticably different than what I expected. It has gasket material on both sides of what appears to be a thin sheet of metal. Not sure of its quality, I spread a thin bead of silicone around all the ports in the gasket on what I felt was the cylinder head side (seems like the gasket material is thicker on one side of the metal than the other) and stuck that to the head. I semi-tightened the couple of bolts that hold the headers to the head. I then applied a thin bead of silicone around just the intake manifolds themselves and attached them to the head. And here I may have gone a little overboard with the stuff, but if you know what kind of summer I've had, then you'll forgive me for being overly cautious. I then siliconed the carb insulators to the intake manifolds and then siliconed the carbs to the insulators. Being a serious woodworker, I know how to spread "glue" and I was not concerned with squeeze out as I was careful in applying it the carbs. I then let it all sit overnight to cure. As I said in my earlier post, the idle is back to normal and I'm happily driving my car to work and not looking at it like it was some kind of disgusting "yard art".

 

[Simon TR4a]

This is an interesting topic, although I no longer own a TR6!
I have always heard owners of the Richard Good setup praise it; so I am sure it works well, but I am not sure it is necessary in theory.
The Healey 3000, with actually a 2912cc engine against the 2498cc. engine of the TR6, used 3x 1.5 inch carbs to produce 132bhp.; this I have read was to get the setup homologated for rallying not to increase power for the stock car, but went back to 2x 1.75 carbs, and finally 2x 2inch for 150 bhp in 1966.
So it would seem to me that 2 x1.75 carbs, in theory at least, ought to be enough for power outputs up to about 130 gross, or perhaps 115 net bhp.(The extra displacement of the Healey would give more torque, but not more power.)
The MGB can also be used for comparison, as its engine is about 2/3 the size of the TR6, and it uses 2x 1.5 inch carbs, and can produce nearly as much power as the TR6, though at slightly higher revs.
The discussion of valve area is interesting, but unless we know the camshaft lift and rocker ratio so we can calculate how far the valve opens a comparison of just the areas has some limitations.
So my guess would be that if you are planning to use a high lift cam and/or high ratio rockers you will get an improvement in power by using triple carbs, but if the rest of the motor is stock I doubt much is to be gained. (Please note that I am offering an opinion, not presenting a fact!!)

Another point to be discussed is whether improving the intake is worthwhile without also improving the exhaust. Again I don't have any solid facts but as far as I know the same exhaust was used on the 150bhp fuel injection TR6, so it should flow well enough for a modified North American spec car without any changes unless you are going for very high outputs.
Anyone with real data on these points please join the discussion!
Simon.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, Dave, I will go get some of that product. My only concern is the ultra-high temp that is achieved at this junction. The three types of gaskets available, as I see it, are the thick asbestos substitute material that looks like paper of all things, the metallic one you used and a soft copper gasket, which I was told to not use. The "paper" type burns out in short order. I guess the secret is having very high tolerances of mating surface, which I have not as of yet been able to achieve. My head will be in in about two weeks so I have time to ponder and ask more questions. I finally got the oil seal sleeve off my shaft by using a K-D tool specific for that purpose. Ain't good tools wonderful. A tool story that I oft repeat that is true but sounds like urban legend: A brother of an acquaintance, both ridiculously wealthy men, is an eccentric
fella that lives over in Baton Rouge and just collects things. Well, a few years ago he was driving around town in an old car and managed to flag down the Snap On driver, in one of those big tool trucks. Asked the driver to let him look around. Because of the man's dress and old car, the Snap On guy sorta blew him off. The guy convinced the Snap On truck to follow him home, where he proceeded to buy everything, including the truck. Just to have. And I had to think twice about buying the K-D tool today.

Bill

 

[trboost]

I love engine mod's, but keep in mind Kastner was able to produce over 160hp using modified dual Stromberg 175's. These two are more than capable of flowing enough air/fuel for a full race motor.
Of course there is a cool factor to the trips but if it's performance your looking for, put the money where you'll get the best return. A quality CD ign system & better flowing air filters might yield the same benifits of the tri-carb set. Richard Good develops & produces top quality products & I am a big fan of his work but I think if you called him & asked what the best bang for the buck would be the carb set up would not be first on the list.

My set-up is completly differant but I use a single 2" SU HD8 & I could probably downsize.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
My set-up is completly differant......

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that that is an understatement. I would think you could blow enough gaseous material through that setup to run a V-12! Cool looking setup. Obviously a lot of engineering went into your intake. One of the extras that Richard Good recommends is his cold air induction box. I had that on mine for about a year but took it off in favor of three 3" K&N filters (they fit!) and a louvered bonnet. The box might well have worked, especially at speed, but was just butt-ugly.

Bill

 

[Andy Blackley]

Dave (arbs_53): With the 3150 Strombergs how did you arrange the PCV? Is there a provision on the new manifold for the Smiths "mushroom" valve?

 

[arbs_53]

Andy,
Yes. For an extra $30. Richard welded a different bung on the middle manifold that has two inline ports: one for the brake booster vacuum hose, the other for the PVC valve.

 

[trboost]

Judging from my fuel gauge, a heavy foot+boost=alot of air/fuel. If I am in the mood for fun I can empty a tank in short order. If I'm under control things return to normal gas milage. The stock fuel pump keeps up with demand with no signs of a lean condition on the 02 sensor.

I happen to like carbs. There's nothing like opening a hood and seeing an engine bay full of carburetors. I had a 240Z with 3/2V Mikuni's years ago. I had to downsize the choke & jet size so much to make it run stoichiometric, I learned then that these were realy funtional for a full race motor at constant high rpm's, but man, these looked awesome under the hood.

The air box would probably work best as you described , under speed & unfiltered to get a ram effect. Otherwise the only benifit is a colder intake. The louvers have a positive effect on air flow & engine bay temps as well as a very cool look.

 

[skikir]

OK. Sounds like they are good addition with compression and cam upgrades and are just OK when used alone. I was hoping for more bang for the buck initially. I will be adding the compression and cam upgrades to the rebuild but I want to stay away from the radical since this is a daily driver and it needs some new upolstry and top and I have other interests for finacial drain. I'm going to start buying parts slowly as fun money is available starting with the tripples and a cam. When you live out in the country there is always some kind of money grabbing project that needs to be done.