starter-solenoid issues?

[jayhawk]

I'm continuing to have difficulties with my TR3! I had my starter rebuilt because it wouldn't engage but it only worked for a few days. The same loud rachety metallic kind of sound as when I took it in the first time. I tried all suggestions by you guys and the mechanic but ended up taking the starter out again (cold dark remote garage) and took it back to the shop. They took it to the rebuilder who said it was fine. I put it back in the car (cold dark garage) and tried to start it. This time all I get is a klunk when I hit the starter button and now the remote solenoid under the hood no longer will activate the starter. I pulled the battery but it was still charged and the lights were nice and bright. Is it the solenoid? How do I know? Other thoughts?

 

[Andrew Mace]

I almost wonder if you might not have the correct starter? I'll assume that you've double-checked ALL starter and battery and ground connections to make sure they are clean and tight.

It's unusual but not impossible for those solenoids to fail, especially after 45 years or so. The easy test is to bridge the two main terminals on the solenoid with a large screwdriver. If the starter runs, there could well be a problem with the solenoid.

 

[dklawson]

I usually use one side of a set of jumper cables to bypass the solenoid to see if I can make the starter turn over instead of using the screwdriver.

Is this the round body, push-button type remote solenoid? I've had those fail and the aftermarket replacements available today are not very good. I've had two of the "new" ones fail shortly after installation.

If you determine the solenoid is at fault... and if you're not locked into originality, you could replace it with the later square-bodied Lucas solenoid. You can always use a jumper wire on the low-current (ignition key) contact of that solenoid to turn the engine over while working under the bonnet. These later solenoids can have their rivets drilled out (and replaced by screws) to clean the contacts if necessary.

 

[jayhawk]

Thanks, Guys. Yes, I've cleaned and tightened all the contact points and both grounds. The solenoid is the remote, push button type and the starter ("bullnose")is the right one for my car according to the books and numbers. I'll try bypassing the solenoid to see if I can get the starter to go. Keep it coming if other folks have ideas. I'll let you know what happens!

 

[Geo Hahn]

[ QUOTE ]
...if you're not locked into originality, you could replace it with the later square-bodied Lucas solenoid... These later solenoids can have their rivets drilled out (and replaced by screws) to clean the contacts if necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you decide to go that route I have one that's yours for the cost of mailing. But if it was me (okay - it was me a couple years ago) I would cruise eBay for a decent used Lucas push-button model.

I've used the handle of a pair of pliers to jump those contacts and even the Dzeus tool in moments of roadside desparation, but whatever you use do so carefully as there will be a hot spark and a mini-arc welding effect.

You can certainly test the solenoid's action by disconnecting the big cable to the battery and seeing if current applied to the red/white post produces a loud click -- though you could still have internal corrosion/resistance that prevents enough current from reaching the starter.

 

[jayhawk]

Well-- I went out into (cold, dark) garage and put the battery back in, looked around again at all the connections, and was ready to arc the solenoid but I figured I'd test things just one more time-- pushed the solenoid button and starter turner over! I kinda jumped since I hadn't heard that sound in quite a while! Guess I didn't expect it. Went into the car pushed the starter button on the dash and it turned over from there too. Too cold and dark and not ready to try to actually start it. Has been 2 months of not having been able to do so (also had choke cable loosened when I took the starter out). So tomorrow with a little starter fluid and choke hooked up I'll give it a real try. I'll be happy if the thing will continue to work but kinda wish I knew what actually made it work... : -
Geo-- Thanks. I will keep your offer and the ebay idea in mind in case this one appears to act up again-- I was cruising the web for solenoid info when saw that one of our forum members also had one for sale.

 

[Andrew Mace]

[ QUOTE ]
Well-- I went out into (cold, dark) garage and put the battery back in, looked around again at all the connections, and was ready to arc the solenoid but I figured I'd test things just one more time-- pushed the solenoid button and starter turner over!...

[/ QUOTE ]Not to belabor the point, but I wonder if "put the battery back in" might be the key? That action might have been enough to "clean" dirty terminals that could have led to the symptoms you described before. Just a thought....

 

[jayhawk]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to belabor the point, but I wonder if "put the battery back in" might be the key? That action might have been enough to "clean" dirty terminals that could have led to the symptoms you described before. Just a thought....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know-- the terminals were pretty clean-- I had brushed them with a wire brush the first time I had the starter rubuilt a coulpe months ago. I'm pretty aware of the results of poor connections (I've had a bunch of old VW's and Lucas products over the years). But that said, I'll take anything as long as it works-- you could still be right and there are still lots of other potential sites for poor connections. I will watch to see if the solenoid and other parts continue to work ala Geo's comment about the internal switching.

 

[jayhawk]

Not to make a mountain about this but maybe others will slog thru a similar problem someday.. I was able to start the car but after I turned the engine off, I was back to hard rachety sound from the starter. Arcing the solenoid did nothing different. Now I'm going to get the ring gear checked for missing teeth, I guess.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Just a thought... maybe we've covered it before when discussing this problem: Do you have a ground strap connecting the engine block to the body (typically from around the D/S motor mount to a bolt on the timing chain cover?

This sort of thing is why I always carry a crank.

 

[jayhawk]

Yes-- had cleaned and even put new bolts/washers at each end of the second ground strap. Those grounds are good to check.
I don't have a crank for mine and thought I could use a socket and rachet arrangement. When I looked thru the hole in the grille, all I saw was about an inch square plate with about a 5/8" hole in it. How does the crank connect with the crankshaft? What does the manual crank look like? By the way, I called a friend and we pushed the car to start it with my wife popping the clutch. I drove it to the shop where of course it wouldn't fail-- at first. Finally it made the familiar grinding sound. They think it may be a coupla' teeth on the ring gear that are bad but will check it out.

 

[Geo Hahn]

[ QUOTE ]
...How does the crank connect with the crankshaft? What does the manual crank look like?...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the business end of one:

As you can see, a socket isn't going to do it. Those teeth engage the starter dog grabbing one way only. This helps prevent the crank from coming back on you if the engine backfires. The dog is in position such that an upward pull on the crank is a compression stroke on one of the cylinders.

If you go to get a used crank (e.g. eBay) be aware there were different styles used (TR2-3, TR3A, TR4 I think), the main difference being the location of the thick bit on the crank that engages the crank support.

 

[jayhawk]

Thanks, again, Geo. I'll take a look for one on ebay and check with local club members-- a lot easier than goading neighbors and having an, um, aging guy like me raising heart rate beyond recommeded formula pushing a car.