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ceramic coating on headers
- Thread starter beez
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PeterK
Yoda
Offline
Never heard that. The whole purpose of ceremic coating is to get the heat out so I would expect mild steel to last longer. First was a TR4A manifold from them. My headers are mild steel and the price of the header w/jethot approximated the ss price. My warranty stated lifetime on new equipment and was sent a registration ticket to match the number they put on the flange for id.
The finish looks like chrome and I cleaned up the welds, etc before I sent them in so they look great. Haven't fired it up yet but I expect they'll stay looking the same after they heat cycle.
The finish looks like chrome and I cleaned up the welds, etc before I sent them in so they look great. Haven't fired it up yet but I expect they'll stay looking the same after they heat cycle.
PC
Obi Wan
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
...some articles say regular steel headers won't hold up to the heat when they are ceramic coated....
[/ QUOTE ]That's very strange since the primary purpose of the coating is to protect the steel. Maybe they were referring to a cheesy external only coating? A high quality coating shop will do both the inside and outside of the manifold. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
Here are a couple shops with good reputations:
High Performance Coatings
Swain Tech Coatings
PC.
...some articles say regular steel headers won't hold up to the heat when they are ceramic coated....
[/ QUOTE ]That's very strange since the primary purpose of the coating is to protect the steel. Maybe they were referring to a cheesy external only coating? A high quality coating shop will do both the inside and outside of the manifold. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
Here are a couple shops with good reputations:
High Performance Coatings
Swain Tech Coatings
PC.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
Peter,
Do you have steel or stainless steel headers? The reason I ask is that some articles say regular steel headers won't hold up to the heat when they are ceramic coated. If Jet Hot warrants against rust it sounds like regular steel may be acceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi BobH,
AFAIK, either mild or stainless steel headers can be ceramic coated. But, coating stainless steel is a bit of overkill in some ways. I've never heard or read anything to suggest stainless steel will fail more quickly if ceramic coated. There might be some problems applying and keeping the ceramic coating on the headers, but I don't know if this is the case or not. I think usually, ceramic coating is used on mild steel headers simply because it's cost effective and provides a lot of benefits.
Mild steel headers get coated inside and out. This protects the steel from corrosion, reduces temperatures under the hood and helps accelerate the exhaust gases passing out of the engine. So it's a win/win/win situation.
Note: Scavanging, or the movement of exhaust gases out of the engine, is accelerated both due to a smoother finish provided by the ceramic coating and because of higher gas temps maintained within the header.
Cost of ceramic coating is really quite reasonable when you compare with buying a set of stainless steel headers. This is particularly true if ceramic coating is used to bring an old, used, inexpensive set of mild steel headers back to life and extend their useful service by many years.
Header wrapping is another solution (dating from the 1950s Hot Rod/drag racing era), with similar benefits. A special, high-temp cloth tape is tightly wrapped around the header, then held in place with stainless steel straps. It's also often coated with a high temp paint, to protect the cloth.
Mild steel headers should normally *not* be completely wrapped, about 70% coverage is the maximum. (Perhaps this is what you have read or heard.) The reason is that the high heat retained will cause faster corrosion of the headers and they won't last very long. It's also possible that some moisture may be trapped under the wrapping, while the car is parked, adding to the corrosion. Of course, someone racing a car might not care about rapid deteroration of a mild steel set of headers, but the rest of us probably will.
Stainless steel headers can be wrapped 100%, because they will tolerate the high temperature and are resistant to corrosion.
Wrapping either type of header usually voids the manufacturer's warranty, if it's a brand new set of headers.
Tubular headers transmit more heat into the engine compartment than stock cast manifolds, due to the thinner materials used. High underhood temperatures can add to overheating concerns and make the carbureation process less efficient. Even with stock exhaust manifolds, and especially with headers, some sort of heat shielding protecting anything close to the exhaust header is a good idea: Carbs, generator/alternator, starter, wiring, fuel lines and brake pipes are all possible areas of concern. (BTW, modern unleaded fuel is more vulnerable to high temps, than was leaded.) Wrapping or ceramic coating can help and shielding may or may not be necessary, or might be reduced in size.
Stainless headers are a lot more expensive to buy because the materials are more costly and they are more difficult to weld up. There can be fewer design choices with stainless headers, as a result.
Stainless steel exhaust system components are probably best considered for a rarely driven car. A daily driver sees the entire exhaust system heated up to operating temps regularly, which effectively purges any condensation that might have collected inside. So, less-expensive mild steel might survive and work well for a long time on a very regularly driven car. The exception to this is very high temperature/high corrosion areas - such as catalytic converters in modern cars - where stainless is often used to give better service life.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
Peter,
Do you have steel or stainless steel headers? The reason I ask is that some articles say regular steel headers won't hold up to the heat when they are ceramic coated. If Jet Hot warrants against rust it sounds like regular steel may be acceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi BobH,
AFAIK, either mild or stainless steel headers can be ceramic coated. But, coating stainless steel is a bit of overkill in some ways. I've never heard or read anything to suggest stainless steel will fail more quickly if ceramic coated. There might be some problems applying and keeping the ceramic coating on the headers, but I don't know if this is the case or not. I think usually, ceramic coating is used on mild steel headers simply because it's cost effective and provides a lot of benefits.
Mild steel headers get coated inside and out. This protects the steel from corrosion, reduces temperatures under the hood and helps accelerate the exhaust gases passing out of the engine. So it's a win/win/win situation.
Note: Scavanging, or the movement of exhaust gases out of the engine, is accelerated both due to a smoother finish provided by the ceramic coating and because of higher gas temps maintained within the header.
Cost of ceramic coating is really quite reasonable when you compare with buying a set of stainless steel headers. This is particularly true if ceramic coating is used to bring an old, used, inexpensive set of mild steel headers back to life and extend their useful service by many years.
Header wrapping is another solution (dating from the 1950s Hot Rod/drag racing era), with similar benefits. A special, high-temp cloth tape is tightly wrapped around the header, then held in place with stainless steel straps. It's also often coated with a high temp paint, to protect the cloth.
Mild steel headers should normally *not* be completely wrapped, about 70% coverage is the maximum. (Perhaps this is what you have read or heard.) The reason is that the high heat retained will cause faster corrosion of the headers and they won't last very long. It's also possible that some moisture may be trapped under the wrapping, while the car is parked, adding to the corrosion. Of course, someone racing a car might not care about rapid deteroration of a mild steel set of headers, but the rest of us probably will.
Stainless steel headers can be wrapped 100%, because they will tolerate the high temperature and are resistant to corrosion.
Wrapping either type of header usually voids the manufacturer's warranty, if it's a brand new set of headers.
Tubular headers transmit more heat into the engine compartment than stock cast manifolds, due to the thinner materials used. High underhood temperatures can add to overheating concerns and make the carbureation process less efficient. Even with stock exhaust manifolds, and especially with headers, some sort of heat shielding protecting anything close to the exhaust header is a good idea: Carbs, generator/alternator, starter, wiring, fuel lines and brake pipes are all possible areas of concern. (BTW, modern unleaded fuel is more vulnerable to high temps, than was leaded.) Wrapping or ceramic coating can help and shielding may or may not be necessary, or might be reduced in size.
Stainless headers are a lot more expensive to buy because the materials are more costly and they are more difficult to weld up. There can be fewer design choices with stainless headers, as a result.
Stainless steel exhaust system components are probably best considered for a rarely driven car. A daily driver sees the entire exhaust system heated up to operating temps regularly, which effectively purges any condensation that might have collected inside. So, less-expensive mild steel might survive and work well for a long time on a very regularly driven car. The exception to this is very high temperature/high corrosion areas - such as catalytic converters in modern cars - where stainless is often used to give better service life.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
JamesWilson
Yoda
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
It's also possible that some moisture may be trapped under the wrapping, while the car is parked, adding to the corrosion.
[/ QUOTE ]
This point was discussed in another thread (Tools or maybe Healeys) on the BCF within the past year, though I cannot now dig it out.
It seemed that several of us have heard of the possibility of corrosion with wrapped manifolds/headers but no one actually had any experience of it happening either to themselves or to anyone they personally knew. Although credible, it always seemed to be a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing. The general sentiment was that the wraps and coatings worked very well and were recommended. FWIW.
It's also possible that some moisture may be trapped under the wrapping, while the car is parked, adding to the corrosion.
[/ QUOTE ]
This point was discussed in another thread (Tools or maybe Healeys) on the BCF within the past year, though I cannot now dig it out.
It seemed that several of us have heard of the possibility of corrosion with wrapped manifolds/headers but no one actually had any experience of it happening either to themselves or to anyone they personally knew. Although credible, it always seemed to be a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing. The general sentiment was that the wraps and coatings worked very well and were recommended. FWIW.
RomanH
Jedi Knight
Offline
I used to run a set of wrapped headers on a daily driver and I never had any problems with them. Kept the system for about 3 years and 50k miles. Finally reverted to the stock system when the rest of the exhuast rotted out and I didn't want to get the same one. The brand I had which had the initials of PS was pretty bad. This was for a FWD car and the flexible coupling between the collector and the exhaust pipe was cheesy. Also the flanges didn't line up well.
The tape on the otherhand was the best thing I did. It reduced the under hood temps dramatically and improved the power output.
When I removed the header I cut off all of the tape and I didn't see any heavy corrosion just some light oxidation. They could have lasted at least another three years!
Hope that helps some!
The tape on the otherhand was the best thing I did. It reduced the under hood temps dramatically and improved the power output.
When I removed the header I cut off all of the tape and I didn't see any heavy corrosion just some light oxidation. They could have lasted at least another three years!
Hope that helps some!
JamesWilson
Yoda
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
Hope that helps some!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Its useful to have real, long term experience reported. Thus far I've heard from about 5 people who've used the wraps and none have had any problems, and all thought it worked well. This corrosion story seems a little like an urban myth....
Hope that helps some!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Its useful to have real, long term experience reported. Thus far I've heard from about 5 people who've used the wraps and none have had any problems, and all thought it worked well. This corrosion story seems a little like an urban myth....
[ QUOTE ]
Where is a good place to have my headers ceramic coated? I live in the upstate are of South Carolina and would prefer somewhere local but am willing to ship them off.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had Stone Performance Engines ceramic coat my headers on my TR6. They are located in Simpsonville, SC. The address is 123 Hodge Street and the telephone number is 864-963-4042. They are very reasonable. I also had them install nickel chrome exhaust valve seats in my TR6 head. They have several colors to choose. I used bright aluminum for the TR6 headers and cast iron gray for my BJ7 exhaust manifolds. They will also ceramic coat piston and combustion chambers as well as Teflon coat piston skirts. If you visit the BMW Zentrum and notice the engines on display, Stone Performance did the work. For many years they were a sponsor for EURO. If you mention that you saw them at EURO they would give you a discount. BTW are you the guy that works at HHGregg?
Where is a good place to have my headers ceramic coated? I live in the upstate are of South Carolina and would prefer somewhere local but am willing to ship them off.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had Stone Performance Engines ceramic coat my headers on my TR6. They are located in Simpsonville, SC. The address is 123 Hodge Street and the telephone number is 864-963-4042. They are very reasonable. I also had them install nickel chrome exhaust valve seats in my TR6 head. They have several colors to choose. I used bright aluminum for the TR6 headers and cast iron gray for my BJ7 exhaust manifolds. They will also ceramic coat piston and combustion chambers as well as Teflon coat piston skirts. If you visit the BMW Zentrum and notice the engines on display, Stone Performance did the work. For many years they were a sponsor for EURO. If you mention that you saw them at EURO they would give you a discount. BTW are you the guy that works at HHGregg?
bobh
Jedi Warrior
Offline
I think I first read about it in Roger Williams book on improving the TR250 and TR6.
Yes the ceramic coating is the modern way to keep heat in the header to improve scavanging.
I've read comments in hot rod articles about wrapped headers. One author said every car he's seen with wrapped headers burned out the rest of the system. That may explain why RomanH had to replace the rest of his system.
We're off next week. If I don't get too many panic calls from customers. I'll try to find the source of the comments.
Yes the ceramic coating is the modern way to keep heat in the header to improve scavanging.
I've read comments in hot rod articles about wrapped headers. One author said every car he's seen with wrapped headers burned out the rest of the system. That may explain why RomanH had to replace the rest of his system.
We're off next week. If I don't get too many panic calls from customers. I'll try to find the source of the comments.
RomanH
Jedi Knight
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
I've read comments in hot rod articles about wrapped headers. One author said every car he's seen with wrapped headers burned out the rest of the system. That may explain why RomanH had to replace the rest of his system.
[/ QUOTE ]
That may be but I didn't think it was that unusual to have a cheep muffler rot out in the time it did. It was the muffler that went, the pipes were still ok.
I've read comments in hot rod articles about wrapped headers. One author said every car he's seen with wrapped headers burned out the rest of the system. That may explain why RomanH had to replace the rest of his system.
[/ QUOTE ]
That may be but I didn't think it was that unusual to have a cheep muffler rot out in the time it did. It was the muffler that went, the pipes were still ok.
bobh
Jedi Warrior
Offline
I re-read Roger Williams comments on headers. I was mistaken about coating steel headers. He was referring to wrapped headers.
I didn't find the article about the adverse effects on the rest of the system when you wrap your headers.
I like the look of the ceramic coatings. If I ever save enough money for all the modifications I want to make. I'll include coating the headers.
I didn't find the article about the adverse effects on the rest of the system when you wrap your headers.
I like the look of the ceramic coatings. If I ever save enough money for all the modifications I want to make. I'll include coating the headers.
trfourtune
Jedi Knight
Offline
after my own research,
i plan to send my self designed and built header (mild steel) to Swain (new york i think). i live near vancouver canada (a long ways away). the ceramic is white only and coats the inside and outside whose main purpose is to retain heat inside the pipe (also lasts a long time). be careful to make sure that the coating you decide on coats the INSIDE as well as the outside. wraps hold the heat in as well BUT they also hold the metal temperature at a much higher temperature than unwrapped or ceramic coated. the ceramic hold the heat away from the metal (header pipes). there are only a few company's that make the stuff (coating materials), most buy from a supplier rather than engineer the actual materials that they apply. real heat retension materials (ratings above 2000 deg) are not shiny silver like jet hot.
rob
rob
i plan to send my self designed and built header (mild steel) to Swain (new york i think). i live near vancouver canada (a long ways away). the ceramic is white only and coats the inside and outside whose main purpose is to retain heat inside the pipe (also lasts a long time). be careful to make sure that the coating you decide on coats the INSIDE as well as the outside. wraps hold the heat in as well BUT they also hold the metal temperature at a much higher temperature than unwrapped or ceramic coated. the ceramic hold the heat away from the metal (header pipes). there are only a few company's that make the stuff (coating materials), most buy from a supplier rather than engineer the actual materials that they apply. real heat retension materials (ratings above 2000 deg) are not shiny silver like jet hot.
rob
rob
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