TR2/3/3A Low Port Head Cracks

[CJD]

As with this entire project, I took one step forward today...and now 2 steps back. The machine shop called. The head has 3 cracks radiating out from the core plug in the middle of the valve gallery.

I picked the head back up, and will try to weld it myself. At best, I give the operation a 1 in 3 chance of success. The core plug is shown in the lower right of this photo. My mechanic thinks the weld plugs were added later...but I would swear the TR3 had the same weld tacks. I'll have to check.



Anyway, I have Marv on the job checking for a replacement head...if (when) the weld job fails. But he's only 50/50 on having one. If anybody has, or knows somebody who does have, a low port head that is rebuildable...I'm in need. I even have 2 TR4 heads I can swap, if anyone wants them.

 

[Guest]

Cast iron can be welded successfully but not by you unless you have previous experience in cast iron welding. Farm it out, why take the chance of installing it to test unless you like wasting both time and money?

 

[Lou Metelko]

I very much agree with kellysguy above - why risk the loss of yet another low port head. Ask the question "how many cast iron heads have you weld repaired and give me a list of your customer's names and phone numbers so I can call".

Lou Metelko
Auburn, Indiana
54 TR2LD

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Pin it.
Find a good shop that knows how.
Tapered thread cast iron plugs.
Drilled, tapped, screwed in and snapped off...next one into the last one to lock it....
Machine out the plug area afterwards.

I have all my flatheads pinned...never leak again, or crack in that area.
Last hole is basically a stop-crack hole so it won't progress.

Dave

 

[TR3driver]

Just to add to the chorus, welding cast iron is extremely tricky and even most professionals can't do it successfully. While I'm sure some can, I have personally never seen such a repair last more than 5 years and many of them only last a few days.

Among other things, you need to preheat the entire casting quite hot, and then weld on it while it is hot, to minimize the differential expansion between the area next to the weld and the rest of the casting.

 

[CJD]

I am intimately familiar with welding cast iron (and aluminum) heads. I've been welding since age 8, and welding on heads for 35 years. That's why I put the chance of success at only 1 in 3. It's also why I would never trust the operation to anyone but myself.

I'm afraid this low port head was already lost before I bought it. It's only $10 in gas and electric to try to bring it back. But I agree with all of you completely as far as it being a long shot.

Marv says he has one...so all may be good.

What DOES have me really worried is that the heater, and now the head, have signs of possible freeze damage. The block had antifreeze when I disassembled it, but it may have had no protection left after 30 years in the back lot. The block very well may be toast too. Has anybody had experience with freeze damage to a TR2-4 block? Just wondered where to start the crack checking!?!

And a final question...are there casting dates on the heads? I just want to make sure I get a replacement that is viable.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

John Sent you pictures of the head I have. Never seen tack welds on the core plug. I have replaced them but no welding. Going to have my head checked tomorrow. Do you want the valve removed? Marv

 

[CJD]

Thanks Marv...sent an Email. You're a life saver again! And yes, if you could remove the valves for the crack check, I'd really appreciate it.

To all else, the pics Marv sent have no tacks at the core plug. I now believe my machinist was right, the tack welds in my picture are obviously from some moron more than 30 years ago trying to stop cracking with a welder. It never works tacking cold cast iron. The good news for me is that it explains the cracking, and implies the engine ran for some time after the tacks were made. So I am optimistic that it is not freeze damage. Surely I can catch a break on this old girl!?!

As for my cracked head. It will go in the corner of the storage shed with 3 other cracked heads...that I am waiting for either the time and desire to try to weld them or have the need for a boat anchor, whichever comes first.

 

[CJD]

Well....Marv crack checked his head and has it coming my way. In a couple weeks I can start over, a couple hundred bucks poorer. I easily broke the date code they used for casting. The original head has "E165" cast into it. By my figuring, that comes out as May 16th 1955. Letter is the month, followed by a 2 digit day, followed by the single digit year. Just in case anyone else has an interest in checking their own heads, it's cast prominantly into the front of the valve gallery. All those years of Vette restorations paid off.

I got the magnet and die penetrant out this morning to study the extent of the cracks in prep for welding. Before I even got that far I found two additional cracks above the three that the machine shop found. As I've had to say so many times on this project...bummer. One of the cracks is all the way from the core to the #2 exhaust valve guide. Scrap.

So, I have lost an old head...and gained a brand new boat anchor.

Spent an hour going over the block to look for cracks. None are obvious, but it's still to grungy to tell for sure. So, has anyone cracked a block from freezing or overheating before? I'm just curious where the weak areas are.

 

[2long]

Check around the stud holes carefully. That is where mine developed cracks.

Dan

 

[CJD]

Thanks, Dan. I'll pay particular attention there.

The cracked head had to have been decked before, as the bottom is way to clean for it not to have been. It measures 3.333" from the block surface to the rocker cover surface. Marv doesn't know about his head, but it measures the exact same 3.333". That's an aweful big coincidence that both 60 year old heads were decked the same amount. With many searches for the original low port head height, I came up blank. Terri Ann's site says 3.330" is stock for the high ports. Not that it matters, but I'd like to have some idea where I am starting with the new head to know what compression/pushrod affect I'll be looking at when I have it decked.

Does anybody know what the original head height was for the low port?

Also, the valves look a bit recessed in the new head. The choices are new seats and standard size valves...or larger diameter valves on the original seats to raise the valves back up. The only oversize available is .040" larger for the intake and exhaust. I was not worried about possibly using both oversize...till I read Terri Ann's write up. She says there is room for an oversize exhaust...but does not mention the intake.

Does anybody have experience putting both intake and exhaust oversize valves in our heads? Like, do they come too close, blanket flow, etc.?

 

[Kleykamp]

I second checking the block around the studs. My block was cracked just in front of the inside front stud. I suspected it was from lifting the block with the studs, without the head on, but that was just my guess. Sorry I can't help with the head measurement. I'm sure that info is available on here. I had one re-surfaced several years ago and got that info somewhere.

 

[CJD]

Thanks...I'll check those 4 inside thread holes very closely.

Update...Marv has the head on the way.

 

[mallard]

My original block was cracked in both front and back head bolt holes on the water jacket side. I discovered them when I went out to start the engine for the first time after putting coolant in the day before. Coolant was coming out between the block and the head in the front, and up through the threads on the back.

 

[CJD]

Keith, when you say "original", I guess the cracks were fatal. Bummer, especially after getting it ready to run. It's sounding like all of the stud threads are crack-prone. Thanks!

I will check the block completely. If it is cracked, I will be shutting this project down.

 

[mallard]

John I still have the block and may try to have it repaired down the road sometime. When I do it will be rebuilt with quality parts not the County brand that is available today.

 

[CJD]

Where can you find such parts? I favor any serviceable original part over a brand new. So far on this restoration I am about 1 return for every 4 parts I order. Not a good ratio at all.


For more than a year I have been wondering about this, which I found the first time I looked under the valve cover:

 

[mallard]

That sure looks familiar without the leak in the front like mine had. Sure looks like a cracked block to me. But you need to remove the head to be sure. I swear some people just throw the cars together and never have a problem. It seems to me the more you try to get it right the more likely you are to have a problem. Back in December when I found the leak I just wanted to quit and sell the car as is. Here I am 6 months later and still finding problems, some my fault, maybe, and others I have no control over. I just replaced my new leaking water pump with an other new one. One thing is for sure the front apron does not go back on the car until I know there are no more issues. I hate to say it but I'm getting very burnt-out on this restoration. Good luck John

 

[CJD]

I hear 'ya! I have not even touched the locked up OD tranny or the swiss cheese body. If the block is cracked it's time to go into the parting out business. The sad truth is that any vintage car is worth twice as much in parts as it is whole. I truly enjoy restoring old parts...but the parts have to be restorable to enjoy it. When it comes to building a car from scratch, one part at a time off the internet...it's time to adjust my goals.

I'll let you know about the block studs. The really weird part about the pic above is that the engine had not run in 30 years. I don't know what could pump the antifreeze that high to leak. We'll see...

 

[mallard]

That antifreeze looks pretty good for an engine that's been sitting for 30 years. The level of the coolant at the front of the engine is higher than at the back. So it will seek it's own level if it can and come up the stud. After seeing that antifreeze I doubt you had any freezing problems, and if you did it should have pushed out the freeze plug before cracking the block, or head. I would not give up on that block just yet, it may have been the head gasket leaking.

Be very patent taking the head studs out. I wonder if that's what might have caused my block to crack. Some of the studs did not want to come out, but I don't remember which ones they were. Most likely the ones on the coolant side were the stubborn ones.