Girling Brake Question - UPDATE 2/12

[Adventurer_96]

I recently got my Sunbeam Tiger back from the garage doing the restoration. When I got it home after a short drive I noticed that brake fluid was leaking from three of the wheels, and the pedal was spongy. Sure enough, there was no brake fluid left in the reservoir either.

My question - if they made the mistake of putting non-Girling-friendly brake fluid in the system, am I boned? Or, can it be flushed and resurrected?

I'm hoping it's just loose fittings, but I'm worried nonetheless.

ETA: Check out my post on 2/12 for an update.

 

[Deleted member 3577]

Re: Girling Brake Question

I have had trouble in the past with the silicon (Dot5) fluid. Not so much that it would leak out as much as you describe. Or that it was as mushy as other people have complained about.

My problem was that the pads would drag.

That being said, I don't believe any type of fluid would be damaging.
I think your problem lies elsewhere.
BTW don't allow dot3 or 4 to come in contact w/ your new red paint.

 

[sparkydave]

Re: Girling Brake Question

I went through a couple of minor leaks when I replaced the lines in my car too. As long as you didn't put anything petroleum-based in your seals should be fine with DOT 3 or 4. I went with silicone fluid when I rebuilt the hydraulics but have not had any problems with dragging brakes or mushy pedal.

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

According to the garage, they used Valvoline synthetic from an email they sent today.

Would the booster have given enough pressure to cause these leaks? It wasn't present at the garage when they started it up, drove it around the parking lot, etc. but I took it for about 5-10 miles when I picked it up. Maybe that was enough to create some heavy pressures w/the servo unit working?

 

[Bugeye58]

Re: Girling Brake Question

The booster only decreases the pedal effort required for braking. Pressure is a function of master cylinder bore size and fluid displacement. I would start by pinpointing the source of the leaks. It could be simply loose fittings, or poorly rebuilt components.
I've got your six.
What do you do at Edwards?
Jeff

 

[thegoodbeamer]

Re: Girling Brake Question

definitly look at the fittings to check if they are not tight.If the fittings and or the lines were replaced was it the right bubble flare.This is important.Were the rear cylinders replaced? I doubt if new ones would be the cause but pull the drum to verify if they leak.If they are original the seals may have been at the end of their life and dried out a bit during the down time causing them to leak.Pull the front wheels and check if the calipers are leaking.It will help to have a friend applying pressure to the pedal.At least you are not wondering where the fluid disappeared to as the servo can suck it out into the engine and burn it when the seals go.
Good luck

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

I hope to be able to take a look at the underside of the car this weekend at a minimum. Preferably, I'd like to take it by a fellow Sunbeam owner to get an idea of what's going on.

I'll have to talk to the mech who put the brakes together. I think I mentioned that the brakes didn't leak for the garage or when the car was delivered, only when it had been driven around a bit. More to follow, my first stop will be to look at the three points (Front Right, and two rear brakes) to see if I can pinpoint where it leaked out.

BTW, I'm a pilot out here, having this car is a nice diversion from the lack of scenery!

 

[Bugeye58]

Re: Girling Brake Question

Roger the lack of scenery!
Jeff

 

[Biff]

Re: Girling Brake Question

According to the Valvoline web site their Syn fluid is compatable with Dot 3 & 4 brake fluids. But you have not supplied enough information for anyone to help with your problem(s). What did they do other than put Valvoline synthetic brake fluid in? Did they rebuild the complete system? Replace/rebuild parts of the brake system? If they did any major work on the brake system take it back cause they did something wrong.

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

Thanks for the replies, sorry I haven't been more specific but the car is wedged in a garage with a ton of crap from a recent move. I'm unable to work on it, or even look at it, unless I roll it out of the garage. That's this weekend's project.

I had the entire car restored recently, and as far as the brakes go they were redone from brake master cylinder rebuild to booster to new lines to fittings, shoes and pads. I suspect that's part of the problem, but I need to get under the car and/or remove the wheels to get a good idea of what's going on. My initial fear, that the mineral-based brake fluid had eaten through the seals, doesn't seem to be the case.

Thanks for the replies, keep 'em coming.

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

I looked under the car this weekend and the fluid seems to be coming from the center of the wheels. I spoke w/a Tiger owner out here who's had a lot of experience w/these cars and, without seeing it, he wondered if the seals might not have swollen enough to form a good seal w/the Valvoline fluid.

I'm going to try to put the car on a lift this weekend, remove the wheels, and take a look at what's going on in there.

Is there a source for Girling brake fluid???

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

I'm thinking I'll try the Castrol LMA fluid - will it work?

 

[trrdster2000]

Re: Girling Brake Question

That's the fluid you need for Girling rubber seals, but the other should work fine, so it sounds to me like your wheel cylinders were honed out and rebuilt and in there zest to get them smooth, they took to much metal out and now the cups edges have nothing to seal against. If that is not the case and you have new ones make sure all fittings are tight. If they have leaked inside the drum, go ahead and figure on new brake shoes. Fluid ruins them for stopping. Wayne

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

It's amazing what you can find out when you take a wheel off. I removed the right front wheel yesterday, which is where the largest leak was coming from. In fact, when I checked out the garage the other day I saw a very large pool under the right front, and a few drops coming off the rear wheels, and the master cylinder was empty.

When I removed the wheel, I could see a large amount of fluid was leaking off of the caliper. When I squeezed the dust covers on the pistons I found that LOTS of fluid came out of there. I decided to remove the pads, and then the caliper entirely.

On a side note, yesterday's foray into the world of Sunbeam brake repair was very important to me. Prior to that, I wanted nothing to do with brakes, but seeing how easy these systems are to analyze, I really got a huge confidence boost that I'd be able to fix most anything that came along in this car.

Back to the story. After removing the caliper, I got some compressed air and blew it into the caliper to get the pistons out. One came out, and immediately I found the problem. It appears that the seal on the inside of the caliper was gouged out. In fact, when the piston came out, a chunk of the rubber came out with it. I didn't remove the other piston, but I'm guessing that's the same case on that side as well.

Interestingly enough, the left front brake doesn't leak at all, which is a good sign. I plan on ordering the seals this week and replacing them.

Also, I'm going to keep using the Valvoline synthetic fluid as it seems to be a little less caustic than the Castrol stuff.

Next week, I hope to fix the front brake and begin to analzye the rear brake - the garage where I was working was closing so I had to call it quits before getting on to the rear brakes.

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

Thanks to all who have replied, I'll keep posting more as I go along so that hopefully others can learn from this.

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: Girling Brake Question

Yikes! Be ~very~ careful when applying compressed air to calipers! A good thing to do is put a piece of 1/2" plywood between the pistons before doing this. Fingers, eyes, pistons and calipers can all be damaged in the process. You may find you'll need to put the removed piston partially back in to get the other one out, BTW.

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

Very true, it got everyone's attention when the piston came out, mine included. I'm guessing it's a much easier process if you leave the caliper attached to the brake line and have an assistant slowly press on the brake pedal?

I checked out the car again today and sure enough there's a large puddle under the right wheel where all the brake fluid has leaked out. I'll take the rear wheels off and analyze as well. Parts are on their way from Victoria British, no clue when they'll get here, but with any luck it will be before Saturday.

 

[kennypinkerton]

Re: Girling Brake Question

All my deliveries from VB have been pretty quick. They even sent me a (signed by the office people) thank you card!

Good luck with the rebuild. Later this week I gotta change 2 more rubber hoses on my car and then a rear hardline, and both the rear cylinders.

 

[DrEntropy]

Re: Girling Brake Question

I've done piston removal both ways, prefer to bench 'em to do it with wood and compressed air. You do know not to "split" the calipers unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, too, right?

This sounds as if it's happening due to careless rebuilding methods... It ain't rocket science to rebuild the brake system on an old English lump. Skill test, mebbe.

Did you have VickieBrit ship you rear cylinders or kits? Did this "shop" where the restoration was done put the proper double flair on the Bundy pipes? I'd say LMA would be the fluid of choice, but neither here nor there until you go through the whole "drill", upside being you'll have intimate knowledge of the workings of your brake system.

And use the fluid of choice as an assembly lube, BTW. The last guy must have gotten over-anxious and chunked the seal, likely 'cause he didn't have the piston aligned *just right*. Have you a good manual on those specific brakes? That'd be another good investment... Dunno about the Tiger calipers, been too long since I've seen one (last one thru our shop was pro'lly 20 years ago), but some pistons have a "cutout" on the lip in contact with the pads that must be set at a specific location, hence the book suggestion.

Sorry for the verbosity... but I'd hate to forget some silly detail and have you go thru the whole experience again.

 

[Adventurer_96]

Re: Girling Brake Question

Kenny, thanks, I'll keep you posted.

Doc, I actually forgot to get the rear cylinders until I'd already called for my second order. Besides, I wanted to wait until I got the rear wheels off and got a good idea of what was going on before I started buying rebuild kits.

I did know about splitting the calipers, it shouldn't be a big deal as this one came off nicely and the outside of the cylinder and inside of its hole wasn't pitted. I suspect that the "over-anxious" theory was spot on. The upside of this is, as I mentioned and you wrote, I'll have an intimate knowledge of the workings of the brakes and it's a big confidence builder. Assuming I actually get them working, that is. I'll have to check on the shop's restoration work re: the flares, they are actually a Porsche restoration shop and otherwise the work is quite good.

I, for one, will never complain about someone being verbose in a thread which I started where I had asked a technical question! Thanks for taking the time to look at this with me.

After the brakes are up and running, I'll have to figure out how to mount the electric pusher fan I just bought...