TR6 Cost to convert a TR-6 to V8?

[Guest]

It's getting closer to the time when my new child has to go get properly fixed up, so I'm starting to look more closely at the costs associated with this.

I need an engine rebuild for sure, it's getting worse and worse. I smell like car when I get home now, and I hate it (almost as much as my wife does). The synchro on second is starting to get a bit tired too, so the transmission is also going to need work soon. It's a regular 4-speed box and (if I stay stock) I'd want to put in an o/d unit. Then there is no point pulling the engine and not doing the clutch. I also need a new exhaust system - the Monza is driving me nuts, and the clunking in the rear when I go into reverse could be anything from the exhaust not being on hangers to a new diff required - I haven't checked yet...

Add to that the cost of a supercharger (from whoever gets there with a retail kit first) or engine mods if that doesn't look like it'll happen next year and I'm up to well over 10k. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/pukeface.gif

At that point a V8 conversion starts to seem quite attractive. Unfortunately there are two problems with this -
#1 I have not enough time, space or welding proficiency to accomplish this conversion at home, and
#2 While it may be easy to throw cash at an MG and turn it into a V8, vendors that will do this to a Triumph seem to be non-existent.

With all that in mind, I have a few questions directed at those brave souls who already undertook this job so I can see if it's going to be a starter, or if I should stop even thinking about it. I'm thinking that a 302/T5 is likely the best option - it sure seems the most popular. I've read (exhaustively) all the sites that describe these swaps, so have some idea of what's involved. I'm going to upgrade the suspension anyway so that's not going to be an issue, and I intend to keep the car so resale isn't a problem either.

Assuming I can find a shop that looks able to do the work:

1. Time? As we know it's money. Anyone care to estimate the number of hours to do the swap. I can then work out a rough first guess at a price.
2. If I go crate engine / new tranny will I still need a donor for other bits? I'll do a carb setup for simplicity.

My final question is directed to anyone in the NE. Do you know of shops that do (or possibly could do) this conversion that you'd feel comfortable recommending?

Or should I just forget it and stay with the 2.5l?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif in advance
Alan

 

[aeronca65t]

There's lots of folks that are enthusiastic about engine swaps here at BCF. But personally, I think it can become a real can-of-worms for the average owner with limited time and experience.
And since you are not planning on doing it yourself, you could easily "get taken to the cleaners" by a lot of shops.

I'd stick with the standard TR-6 engine.
If for no other reason, engine swaps often reduce the value of a classic car (even if they are done really well).
Also, I'd beware of superchargers or turbos on Triunph engines...they have a pretty long stroke and are not all that durable (unless you like changing crankshafts and bearings on a regular basis). Slightly higer compression pistons, a "fast-road" cam and headers would be worthwhile and useable improvements on your TR-6.

A decent idea might be to have the folks at "The Roadster Factory" rebuild your engine...they are a pretty good outfit.
Roadster Factory link:
https://zeni.net/trf/TR250-6/6.php?s_wt=1024&s_ht=768

Another excellent source would be Rimmer Brothers, but they are in the UK so shipping would be a killer.
https://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/

I've driven 4-speed TR-6s and they seem to cruise pretty well with the normal trans (especially when compared to a Spridget!). The o/d might be nice but I wouldn't say it's a "must" on a TR-6. If your trans is weak, The Roadster factory folks could rebuild that as well, but you might want to try a local trans rebuilder. The TR-6 trans is similar in design to many American manual transmissions....a place like AAMCO could probably even do it.
Whatever you choose to do, G'luck!

 

[Guest]

I would have to concur with Prof. McCabe on that one. Dropping a small block V8 into a TR6 is commonly done, often with excellent results. Just ask Dan Masters on this forum. But note that people that do this and do it well will have very high levels of skill to achieve the result of a totally unique car that has it's own inherent value. Checking out Dan's website, which you surely have done, will show the uncommon effort needed to achieve these results. Doing a half-fast V8 conversion on a decent TR6 will result in a car that essentially has no value and will be prone to many problems. Certainly there are many gifted mechanics on this forum that have accomplished such a transplant, but there are as many that wish that they had never started. Many a V8 conversion has been done without the necessary drive-train and frame improvements, thinking that they will just cruise around in a cool car that could, just could, kick some ass at the local Sonic. It is when they get tired of occasionally gunning it and really light up the tires that the whole thing self-destructs. Stay with the original engine. TRF built my head, differential, hubs and tranny. Priced fairly, excellent quality and good warranty. (My tranny dropped a gear at exactly 13 months, they shipped me a new one, no questions asked.) It is your money. Just want you to retain some of the value of your car. If you still think you might say,"Wow, I could've had a V8!", then think about a TR8, a real Mustang eater...

Good luck.

Bill Karam
1973 TR6 RestoMod
Franklin, Louisiana

 

[jeff3113]

The previous posts are right on. The bottom line is the bottom line.
There are a couple TR-v8 conversions for sale each year on some of the online auto sites. Last one I saw was about a month ago. If I were to calculate my labor costs for my v8 conversion, it would bankrupt me.
If you are going to hire something like that out, don't go any further into the V8 idea. I could have done thnigs much cheaper - but NOT like half the cost.....
I would encourage you to look into reworking the existing drivetrain.
TR engines and trannies can be readily rebuilt. For a fraction of a V8 conversion, you can have both rebuilt and run around for years. If you want the raw Hp, keep looking for that occasional TR conversion and sell your rebuilt one.

all said and done, it all depends on how much $$ you got.

good luck - keep us posted!

Jeff3113

 

[waltesefalcon]

Ok, I work in a shop that has performed several LBC/V8 swaps in the past couple of years, and heres the skinny. The amount of labour put into doing one of these right is going to cost you alot before you even get into the cost of parts. They can make pretty nice cars when they are done, but I don't think they are enough nicer than a well done 6 cylinder to make the effort worth while. Honestly what I'd look at if I were you would be converting my tranny into a 5 speed. You'd get an overdrive for your final gear, and it'd drive on the highway like a completely different car. The TR6s engine itself is a great engine, and alot can be done with one. Granted to get alot out of one, you'll spend a little cash on it, but it will be alot less then a full V8 conversion would be. In my opinion doing a V8 conversion on a car like a TR6 doesn't offer near the return for the buck, that a solid rebuild and tuning of your current engine will, when mated to a 5 speed.

 

[piman]

Hello Alana,
a TR6 is not a TR6 with a V8, it's then a bastard.
I agree with Aeroncat65t, modify the engine if you want more power, but no supercharger, learn to double de-clutch if you must change down to second, but it's rarely necessary such is the torque of the engine. I personally would go for an overdrive as it is a huge improvement, not just for cruising but accelerating in third then switching to overdrive third gives a huge speed band for overtaking. A five speed doesn't come close.

Alec

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi Alan,

I hope to do a V8 conversion on a TR some day, most likely a TR6 or TR7. However, I do plan to tackle most of the labor myself and I will work deals where ever I can to get parts at a reasonable cost. For example, a good engine plucked from a junkyard is bound to be cheaper than a crate engine. But... as mentioned by others... there is a lot of work involved, and more than a little fabrication. If you hire out the work, you will have a lot of labor costs.

The other suggestions are very good. Rebuild what you have. Nice TR6s are going up in value. I really like the TR gearbox and I'd also suggest installing an overdrive, which will add a lot of value to the car. A J-type such as is used on many TR6 is not as expensive to install as the earlier A-type. If interested, you might want to check out www.quantumechanics.com, John Esposito's website. He can take care of much of your rebuild needs: gearbox, differential, and could do an overdrive conversion if you wish.

Best of luck with your project!

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif.
'62 TR4 CT17602L

 

[Guest]

Wow - not a single positive comment. I'm quite surprised, so in my defence let me explain my thought process at least.

I already priced fixing the engine and swapping the box for an o/d unit. I looked at the HVDA conversion, which while nice is not the same as a 4+o/d to me (I figure that once you change one thing then it's non-stock so you might as well keep going - I still feel bad about putting modern headlights in).

The 6 cyl engine rebuild would go out to a place in CT that does British cars. The cost is comparable to the TRF rebuilt engine, but I get a drive in/drive out experience, which is exactly what I need. They will custom build to suit - and from what I read, and after talking to them seem more than capable. If it goes in then it will get done properly. I HATE cutting corners to save a few dollars. When I was a kid (with no money at all) I had to do it a few times, and it always led to disaster.

The car would then go up to Quantum for box + o/d. They are about 70 miles from me, so readily driveable. I used the pricing on his website for parts, and labor from the chap from RI that was on the board a few days ago doing the same thing to come up with an estimate for that conversion. I can get the rear checked out at the same time, and fixed if it needs it.

Ok, so I can have a nice TR6 with a basically new engine and a rebuilt transmission. It performs ok, and looks cool but still really isn't that quick. Total cost to me done, with no aggravation apart from a couple of two hour drives is in the order of 7-8k and I'm fine with that.

I looked at just about every possible combination of performance improvements, from compression changes right through to EFI and supercharging, but hit the "it's non-stock" thing again (apart from engine internals which since you can't see them don't bother me). If I change one thing then I might as well keep going...

That's what led me to thinking about the V8 conversion. Of course I also saw the +8 Morgan at ISIS with the LS7 engine and trans, but it's too expensive for a toy that would only be used for 6 months of the year. It did make me drool though, and got me thinking about the same or similar for my own car, which is where I am today. I own the car and intend keeping it so resale really isn't an issue. To put this into perspective I have an 18 month old LandRover that has depreciated more than I'll ever have in this car. That's not to be offensive, more to keep a sense of balance on the costs here.

I realise that TR6s are going up in value, but mine is nice not concours (mainly because the PO put in a n/s interior), so it'll never be worth a huge amount, and I'm glad of that fact - it means I don't care about driving it. I hate to see cars that just sit in the garage. To make it concours would be a huge waste in terms of ROI, and - more improtantly - would stop me enjoying driving it as it was intended.

Could I buy a dog-rough car and do the work to convert to a V8 myself. In the future in a garage with more space, probably. Right now, no. Would it be more prudent financially, yes absolutely - even budgetting for the tools and equipment I don't possess currently.

I thought that given the availability of similar (commercial) conversions for other British cars I'd see if anyone knew of one for this one. After all it's not a D-Type or a DB5. A new V8 crate motor is comparable in cost (within 25%) of a rebuild, and it's pick a number for HP. The other parts (gbox and back end) are similar so I figure that it's just the cost of labor and finding a place that I'd trust not to screw - either it or me.

OK, rant off. I'm not set in concrete one way or another. This was just to get an idea of the amount of time to do the fabrication and shove in the engine/trans and back end. If it turned out to be vastly more than the cost of staying stock then there's little point in pursuing the idea. After all when all is said and done, this supposed to be for fun...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif

 

[frankenstang57]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I'm not suprised about the no positive response aspect of this post, atleast at this site. Don't get me wrong, I really like this site alot, but it's a pretty common attitude of most most British car folks that swapping an American V-8 into anything is taboo. I say go for it. It's your car isn't it? Your the one who has to drive it. The SBF and a T-5 will probably weigh the same if not less than the 6, with way more HP/reliability for the buck. I'm right in the middle of swapping a SBC/Powerglide setup into a Spitfire. I'm doing all the work myself to keep costs down and have plenty of room, tools, and fabricating skills. I would guess that if you were realy willing to spend $7-8k on this project, it should be doable. You may want to look into prehaps buying a wrecked Mustang 5.0/GT and use it as a donor instead of going the crate engine route. That way you'd be sure to have everything you'd need, linkages, clutch, trans, etc. Get yourself a Megasquirt to run the EFI, and away you go... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

 

[trboost]

Hi all,
As stated by Dan many times, a V8 conversion when done the right way will yield a unique hot rod that has the look of the car we're drawn to. You are basicaly disposing of the drive train ( engine, trany. final drive ) & replacing it with american muscle. Much smoother & effortless HP but at the cost of much more time, money & expertise. You go from a IRS differential to a solid rear axle. Brakes, gauges, wiring, chassis reinforcments & lots more fabrication is required. To get to your target weight you'll probably need aluminum heads, Dan would know best.It changes the characteristics of the car to one more of an AC cobra , which isn't a bad thing. You just have to know what you want.

Since supercharging was brought up I'll comment on that. My comments are fact & I do not discourage any one else's projects or methods. Discounting this as a sure way to destroy your motor is the farthest thing from fact you can state. Personaly , I'll match performance dollar to dollar spent on power adders against anyone out there. I can also put my car back to stock appearance in 4 hours or less. That includes compression. Try that on a performance motor with a shaved head, lopi cam & tripple Webers. The prefered compression for supercharging is 7.75:1. I drive around town all day with out any undo stress on the engine. It's not until the throttle is depressed enough to drop vacuum that the pressure builds, unlike a motor that requires higher compression to make power all the time. You can bolt this on to a stock motor in SPEC & add a minimum of a 50% hp & torque gain. Sure if you trounce the motor you stand a chance of breaking parts, but no more than any other street performance engine.

The point is, there are many methods that apply and many levels of performance depending on time & money.

 

[Guest]

Ok, I don't want this to get into a V8s in British cars are bad thread. If I wanted to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/troll.gif I'd go onto the Sunbeam forum, say that Tigers are useless and see what they thought there, or I'll post another thread about how ropey TR8s are, saying they should have stuck with the 7 and see what happens. I won't even bother to mention ACs, another complete waste of time.

Nor do I want to have an argument about which mod is best. FMM it depends on what you want it for (and how much you want to spend). I spent a long time looking at various options, and if I do go that way - 2.5l non-stock - I'll go supercharger (not turbo), boost the CR, and efi in that order, but again that's just my opinion. It's my engine and if it blows up it's my fault. I'm over 21.

The question I wanted to have answered was simply this - taking out of the equation the cost of parts, can anyone make an estimate (or a swag even) of how much it will cost to farm out the conversion of a TR6 to a V8. Since labor rates differ markedly across the country I tried to make it easier by asking how many hours would be involved.

Now again I'm not fully decided one way or another. It's a legitimate question though I thought. Based on average labor rates in my area, if I can get out for around 100 hours or less and I can get someone I'm comfortable with to do it, then I'll likely end up with a V8. I'm sorry if that upsets people, but there are plenty of TR6s around much nicer than mine.

If it's going to be significantly more than 100h billable for the mechanical work, then it's too expensive for me and I won't go that way. At that point I'll do the things I looked into for the engine that's in there, and at least I can stop wondering about it.

Once again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif to those that answered. I respect your opinions, it's just that I'm looking for something a bit more specific.
Alan

 

[skikir]

I have seen GM 3800 V6s that look real nice with a 4BBL. I have a "parts" car and have always been thinking of putting an aluminium block TR8 V8/Rover 3.5L/Buick 215cid with a GM 5 speed tranny. I think that engine was the parent of the later land Rover V8s.

 

[TRED]

I love my v8 tr6 but it took way more time then I planned to build the car. I never kept track but I would guess I have 2000 hours in the project. Going from a nitrous 600HP 455 Pontiac to a turbocharged 455 now. My TR6 was also totaled out before I started the project.

 

[Geo Hahn]

[ QUOTE ]
...The question I wanted to have answered was simply this <snip> how much it will cost to farm out the conversion of a TR6 to a V8...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like the problem isn't any purist bias against this, just sounds like those with experience have done all the heavy lifting themselves. From their comments it would appear to be a time-consuming (expensive) proposition. From my very limited experience allowing someone else to work on my car (paint & body) employing even a competent third party can also be a frustrating undertaking.

 

[Keoke]

Alana:
IMOP this thread seems like its a case of making a

mountain out of a mole hill.If not there wouldn't be so many HLY 100's runing here on the west coast with Rover/Buick engines and Ford V8's in them and they did not cost a fortune to do or take life time to finish. If you know what you want to do and how to do it just go do it.---Keoke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

 

[Dave Russell]

Re: Cost to convert a TR-6 to V8? *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED*

Post deleted by Dave Russell

 

[Keoke]

WelI don't know about that location but here we have people that will convert anything you want. Maybe ship it huh---Keoke /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif

 

[aeronca65t]

OK, since you're just looking for a W-A-G, here's some numbers that may provide reference.

Around 1975, I put a 289 Ford V8 and 4-speed trans in a Volvo P1800. It took me about a year to complete and I would honestly say it took me about 200 hours of labor. I had a good place to do it in, had good tools and good mechanical skills.

This year, a friend of mine is swapping a Ford Zetec four-cylinder engine and Sierra trans into a Turner. The Turner has a 1275 Sprite engine and trans, so this is a pretty simple swap. No changes to the rear or suspension is planned. I've been helping him by machining brackets and other parts. When it's all done, I'd say he'll have about 75 hours of honest labor in it (not including the time we sit around and drink beer while looking at it).

The most intriguing swap I've seen here at BCF is a guy who's putting a BMW 325 six into a TR-6. That sounds very cool to me, but it also sounded like it would take mega-hours to finish. I can't recall the guy's name...anybody else remember?

 

[jsneddon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...The question I wanted to have answered was simply this <snip> how much it will cost to farm out the conversion of a TR6 to a V8...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like the problem isn't any purist bias against this, just sounds like those with experience have done all the heavy lifting themselves. From their comments it would appear to be a time-consuming (expensive) proposition. From my very limited experience allowing someone else to work on my car (paint & body) employing even a competent third party can also be a frustrating undertaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

As usual, Geo says what I was thinking all along with this thread....

The first couple of posts were trying to gently say it but then it digressed.

in a nutshell...

By all means do it... but if you aren't the guy with the shop, time, and skills to do it yourself you are probably going to get taken to the cleaners AND spend a lot of time banging your head against the wall as whoever does it for you takes his sweet-a** time to get it done.

Sorry... just the brutal truth.

I doubt anyone could give you a good estimate to farm it out because the people who did it spent 2 or 3 years puttering and futzing on their own in their spare time.

 

[jeff3113]

If I were to give it a W.A.G. I figure it took me 550 hours to do the functional rolling conversion. 14 months start to finish. That is NOT including the fine tuning once it was rolling. That has been ongoing since.

That 14 months included doing the:
1. Engine and tranny install
2. Power Steering rack
3. Build brackets and install tube air shocks in the rear
4. BMW LSD(after removing and rebuilding the rear mounting assembly)
5. Reinforcing the entire frame with 30 feet of steel
6. Modifying the front to fit a 20x24 Griffin 2 row radiator.
7. Staying married.......

The fine tuning was:
1. build in the insulated tranny tunnel with shift linkage (talk about hot air!!),
2. install the 4th gear OD switch inside the 700r4,
3. remove the diff and re-adjust the diff mounting points,
4. heat shield the floor pans and firewall (hot stuff!),
5. Build and wrap the exhaust, build a skid plate for the oil pan/tranny pan,
6. install tougher front springs and coil-over the existing shocks.
7. Stay married........

whew............

...and enjoy the whole thing while doing it!!!!!!!

Jeff3113 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif