General Tech Starter Mounting "Cage Nut" Delima and Poloshing Cost Outrage

[DornTRoriginal]

I need some advice and support from my BCF friends.

As some are aware, I am "hopefully" in the process of finishing the body restoration portion of my TR3 project, a three year deal that has been filled with more drama than a Steven King novel. In March 2014, yes over a year ago, I mentioned to my body shop owner that if he could weld the top nut to the bell housing it would make it easier to reinstall the Starter motor if that ever has to be done. He said "no problem" and that was the last I heard about it for about 13 months. He is finally getting around to finishing the painting and reinstalling the body back on the car so he asks me to call him Wednesday afternoon, he wants to pay his guys for all the work they have done on my car on Friday and needs to send me an invoice. Somehow he forgot that I paid him last July (2014) because he said he was all ready to get everything done finally and if I could pay him now it would speed up everything. I know, I fell for the rue due to my trust of mankind along with anticipation and hope. What a sucker I am!

I got his statement and invoice there were some items that caused me to go into three stages of temporary insanity, i.e. dazed, disillusioned and anger! The first item was the cost of "welding the cage nut" which was $375. He said oh yea "it took his guy all day to do since the transmission had to be removed and replaced because the aluminum warps, plus it took three hours to "tool up the milling to do the machining"..." and he knocked off a bunch of the cost "I was being generous". I am thinking this is a bit much, I don't know where I originally heard about the idea to "affix" the nut that holds the starter motor onto the bell housing, it seemed like a great idea because it is a painfully tedious task to replace that nut after it is removed, I know this to be true! But then OMG $375.00! Will I have to remove the starter that many times in the future to make this worth the expense? I explained that he should have consulted with me about this prior to proceeding; I was thinking when I mentioned it to him it was not going to be so involved and expensive and I was not happy that my newly acquired rebuilt all sycro transmission was removed by one of his shop guys, wait it's not new it's three years old now and never operated. Grrrrrr.... I attached a picture of the "crafty solution" for all to see!

The other item was the cost of "polishing" the paint $3,750. He explained to me that originally he thought it would take only 40 hours but it ended up being 75 hours! I am no expert on this subject but I know that when the work takes almost twice the amount that was estimated and four times what an industry expert says it should take I need more information. From what others have told me this is a little over the top for a small car like a TR3. One body guy said it takes his guys no more than 18 hours to polish a big car. Does anyone have any thoughts? I have attached some pictures of the painting work to date.


My LBC friends does anyone have any suggestions, comments or advice. All I want for summer is to get my car back on the road so my father, who is 88 years old and the original owner of the car, can at least go for a ride in the car!

Thank you!

 

[bobhustead]

The charges seem way out of line. If you wish to contest them, your only option is to talk to a consumer lawyer. Many states have procedures to post bond for contested charges to obtain release of the car and require the shop to justify at trial. Some jurisdictions require written estimates (allowing express written waiver) on pain of charges being unenforceable beyond the estimate. Such consumer protection laws usually provide attorneys' fees and expert witness expenses to prevailing consumers. Cali is pretty consumer friendly. Poor judgment on the consumer's part is not typically a defense. Otherwise, pay it and go on.
Bob

 

[Geo Hahn]

I have always gotten a firm price up front for a very specific description (often many pages) of the work to be done and an exact price. Noted on the acceptance that any deviation from that needs to be approved in advance. Not knowing what agreement you had makes it hard to comment on how fair the result is and what recourse you might have - but if the arrangement what primarily based on 'trust' and a handshake then you may not have much choice. That said - what I see in the pictures looks good.

Too bad about the starter nut as there are several simple solutions to make that install easier (helicoil, 2-nut bracket, reversing the bolts or (my way) just dangle the nut & lock washer on the end of a wire:

Though yours is possibly the most professional looking solution I have seen.

 

[CJD]

It looks great. Welding aluminum is specialized and pricey. I would not have paid that much, personally, but I see why he split the tranny, which drove up his price. Talk him down if you can, but then pay it and move on.

 

[PatGalvin]

Agree with John. he did a really nice job on that nut, and that sort of welding doesn't come cheap. The cost of the clear coat color sanding and buffing is really high, but I will say they did a primo job. Really nice. There must be many coats of clear on that car, to produce a finish like that.

Pat

 

[Brinkerhoff]

The time needed to color sand and polish is directly related to how well the finish was sprayed. If the cost of the overall refinish is in line , what difference does it make? If you were only charged $1500 in labor to spray it then around $7500 in labor and materials to refinish the car is about right. Above that it makes no sense on a TR3.

 

[Simon TR4a]

Am I right in thinking it is note a base/clear paint job but polished enamel?
If so it may well be hand polished to avoid swirls, which would take a long time, but that should have been discussed much earlier in the process- you have no way of telling how long the job took.
You could ask to see the records of hours spent on your car, the shop will usually keep a job sheet on each car separately and show the dates and times employees spent on the work, but if he can show you that you will pretty much have to accept it.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

You got some nice work done. Price is high but if you didn't discuss price and budget up front, you need to pay and move on.

Marv

 

[PatGalvin]

Only a minor hijack on the thread....

What do you guys think a paint job like that would cost in your neck of the woods? In NorCal, a paint job like that, with minor body work, painted body off and assembled, would probably run about 9 or 10 grand, I'd bet. Curious to hear what your thoughts on that are. And Dorn, curious what the entire paint job cost (if you want to share that info).

Dorn, hope you can attend the All British show in Dixon this Sunday. Will be another great show.

Pat

 

[DornTRoriginal]

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice, this has been a learning experience. I agree, over all the finished work is pretty nice, I did have an agreement in place when we started the project and everything, it seemed at the time, was clearly discussed and agreed upon but the original plan was amended as time went on due to various discoveries and just plan old crap that seemed to arise. I guess that is what happens, I lack experience with doing body work and every time, which has not been too often thank goodness, I had my car repaired the estimates were usually pretty right on and everything got done pretty quickly. I don't think there was any particular incident that I can point to that made it all weird but there were a lot, I mean a whole lot of problematic issues to deal with that jus kept coming at me over and over. The body work was not minor the floor pan on the right side was replaced and the rear floor panel had to be repaired because the drive shaft came lose and banged around while the car was being towed back in 1978, this was clearly disclosed and visible, the story is the guy who was originally assigned to work on the car made some really bad decisions that had to be redone once those were discovered. Hard to know who was at fault here but in the end there was more sheet metal work completed than was thought to be needed when we started, the frame appeared to be out of alignment and the tub was twisted for some reason so none of the body panels were fitting together correctly. Our agreement did not cover how to handle that situation which was a factor in why this has taken 3 years to get done but certainly not to only one. I put all of my trust in the owner who I believed to be a straight up guy, and I still do with a slight hesitation, I just disagree on his "business approach" and commitment to getting my car completed. I was in a position where I had invested so much there wasn't a good way out, I decided to just ride it out and hope, that was back in March 2014. It has been a long hard journey and if I could do it over I would defiantly do it differently. The shop does do great work but their work is expensive, they take their sweet time to do a job but they have a lot of cars being worked on in their shop. The one thing I would have liked to have had was a performance clause in place, I don't think the owner would agree to it. I had a written proposal with all the costs but nothing that pined down a time frame and way to handle changes in the scope and the requirement to provide timely updates on the status of the project. This guy is just terrible at communicating about what is going on unless he wants money.

Pat here is a quick break down of the costs, I am a bit over whelmed of how much this has cost me but here goes: The body work, including mineral blasting, priming was just under $6K. The painting 2 stage urethane, 3 stage color sand and 4 stage polish was $4K and materials for the painting were just under $3K. My project breaks down further, I figure the painting, body work, all the fees and charges such as; inspect and measure the frame, all body and paint materials costs and all the parts (trim, bolts, screws etc. to have the body completely assembled and delivered to my home will be right around wait for it.... $22K if you add everything! There's more... the upholstery, rebuilding of the gauges, rebuilt all syncro trans, complete engine rebuild, rebuild carbs, new springs, shocks, starter motor, alternator conversion, interior trim, new tires and everything else is another $20K. If I ever get this car back on the road it will cost at least $40 to $45K. Please don't tell my wife!

I will try to make it to Dixon on Sunday I'll need to commiserate with LBC enthusiasts! I may need to put out a tin cup for some spare change as well!

Thanks again everyone, you all have kept me sane during this crazy ride!

 

[PAUL161]

I paid $ 7000.00 for the paint job, which everyone loves and raves about, on my TF and will have aprox $35,000 in the car when done, maybe more. If you can retrieve some of the funds, go for it, but if not, bite the bullet and finish the car. From what I'm seeing you have a wonderful paint job. As said by someone else, move on, finish the car and enjoy it! Once behind the wheel, you won't even look back. PJ

I didn't say that when it's done, Burn the receipts!

 

[Brinkerhoff]

Some of your numbers are in line but who is going to reassemble the car? From a painted tub in the pictures with all the parts off of it to a finished TR3 is all of 300 hours. Is that included in your numbers? If not you'll have 60K in it .

 

[Geo Hahn]

This is a thread that should be read by anyone thinking of hiring out a restoration and pondering 'just paint' vs 'body work' and considering what to do themselves vs turning it over to a shop.

For even the most competent shop this is work that takes a lot of time (time = money) and supplies that can be costly (more money).

To add to the frustration, some shops use this type of work as a fill-in with every bashed fender and insurance claim cutting ahead of you in line.

If you want to head down that road (and I have a couple of times) documentation and communication are vital to keep everyone happy and on track.

 

[DornTRoriginal]

If I was to include all of my time you are right! I figure my time as a hobbyist and not a professional. It takes me longer to do the stuff I can do because I enjoy tinkering and I am a perfectionist. If the project was just based on cost I don't believe I would be doing it because it doesn't make dollar sense. The day my car goes down the road again with my dad sitting in it is gonna be one of the best days I will ever live! Priceless!

 

[sp53]

Beautiful car, the only leverage you have is money and time and it sounds like he knows time is important to you. The shop looks high end and that they have a positive cash flow, so money is probably not desperate… Hopefully they are putting the car back together because they look very skillful and will do a nice job. Just hold that last payment until you are totally happy or as good as you can get.
A tough one

 

[CJD]

Well, you could have found cheaper, but I don't think you could have found a better shop...the paint looks immaculate from the photos you took. Even with the sticker shock, you will have a car you can be very proud of! The costs sound about right to me for a competent shop. I think it would have been worse if you paid half that much but were not happy with the work quality. In other words...I think the car looks every bit what you are paying for.

I have a close car friend who always told me, "you can never pay too much for a car, you can only buy it too soon". The value will climb into your cost...

 

[pdplot]

I did only one complete resto - a 1952 MG TD. This was back in the early 1970s - parts were cheap then - and so was my labor - all 600 odd hours of, mostly working in a cold garage and stringing together a series of curse words you wouldn't want to hear. I paid $1,100.00 for the car and farmed out only a valve job - done by a local race-car mechanic, the best in the area - for the huge sum of $45.00, and the painting, done by a skiing buddy of mine who owned a body shop (I forgot the cost but I think it was less than $1K.) Anyway - I sold the car for $9,500.00. I also did a mechanical restoration of my current TR6 - it was already painted by one P.O. - and I've got just over $13K in it including the $2,500.00 purchase price. Being a "daily driver" - although never driven daily - I'd probably be lucky to get $10K or $11K for it, doncha think? OTOH, I could have gone whole hog on both projects and never gotten my money out of either car. You took the other tack and will wind up with a show car - you'd better at that price. As the prices for these cars continues to climb, who knows how you'll eventually come out. I wish you luck.

 

[charleyf]

There are two high end restoration shops locally. A couple of years ago I ask one of them ( likely the cheaper one) how much it would cost me for a paint job. This would be with first class paint and looking as good as what your pictures show. ----- $13,000. So add a couple of years of inflation and consider what you paid was in the ball park.
Charley

 

[TRMark]

My starter bolt/nut solution, cheap.

 

[PatGalvin]

Guys
Great topic and great thread. Geo is right. Everyone should read this before they farm out a restoration or custom paint job.
Dorn, you will have a wonderful car and hopefully, a wonderful experience with your Dad. That is heart warming, for sure.

Please look me up at Dixon. Look for the white TR3 with the green stripe. Would love to meet you.

pat