How much would it cost/Did I make a good purchase?

[Mike]

Okay, now I'm really seeing some things on the new purchase (58 Bug Eye) that I didn't notice when I purchased it. Tonight I was removing the seats to install a carpet set and was under the car removing bolts and noticed that the previous restoration had hidden rust under the passenger floor boards. The restorer completely painted the bottom. Supposedly it was recently restored. At least it was painted. Just about everything is panted (axle, springs, hydraulic cables and more)There are some areas on the body that were filled with bondo. They did a pretty god job but still there are areas you can tell if you look closely. With all that being said, what would it cost to have the body (less engine and components) stripped, sanded, filled properly, some rust spots replaced and painted? Should I ignore the rusted areas beneath and drive and have fun? I don't believe the rust spot is critical to the structure but I'm also not sure how many rusted areas there are. Items in need of repair:

1) The tranny or clutch stated to act up today after a bout 10 minutes on the road. It was basically stuck in gear and I could hardly get it out of one into the other. When I put it in reverse to pull into the driveway it still stayed in gear when I engaged the clutch. After sitting for awhile the problem seamed to go away. I took it around the block later and the issue did not occur. Perhaps a slave cylinder as suggested from some of you guys in one of my earlier post.
2) Speedo cable was not hooked up at speedo. Perhaps needing replacing. 3) Pulled out the choke pull and it broke today at the pull handle.
4) Needed carpet (installing now).
5) Seats need to be put on rails so excess to the rear compartment can be made. Seat are stationary now, not originals but well finished.
6) Ignition was changed to "turn and start". Needs to be change back to original starting mechanisms.
7) Windshield Pillars and trim are tarnished.
9)Parking brake does not work.
10) Car is straight pipe out to the side. The piping looks a bit bent and needs replacing from the header and a muffler installed.
11) No top. Now for the big question, Did I spent to much on the purchase (traded a motorcycle with a resale value of 10K)?

I think the car is very cool and I'm excited to own it but am wondering if I bought the wrong Bug Eye and should have been more patient. Although I'm novice at old cars, I've rebuilt motorcycles and worked on tractors so I'm not afraid to work on the Sprite (I enjoy this kind of stuff). I did not have another Bug Eye to compare it to. In fact I haven't seen one in the Dallas/Fort Worth area for the past 10 years. So I was knowingly going in a little blind. Your opinions and comment will be very appreciated. I just want to see if I was a good purchase.
Thanks,
Mike

Paint peeling in this picture but no rust in peeling areas.

Rusted area under passenger side.

Example of how everything was painted.

Interior shot, rough areas on side and wall in front of shifter. Was this how it was originally finished?

 

[tdskip]

Hi Mike - you <span style="font-weight: bold">always</span> will find things afterwards, just kind of the deal. While there are people on this forum that know these cars well enough to avoid making a mistake, for most of use it is just part of the deal as we learn.

I'd say the items you listed are all pretty much house keeping type stuff - parts are all available and only some puttering time in the garage would be required.

It is pretty common for these cars (any vintage car actually) to get a fresh coat of paint before being sold. The over spray you provided pictures of is pretty common. Bondo over bumps isn't a big deal, bondo over rust might be more of a challenge long term. Where specifically is that rust through on the passenger side?

I personally wouldn't focus too much on what you paid - focus on enjoying her and learning about the car. Focusing on the money will just make you crazy.

 

[vagt6]

Mike, you didn't indicate your purchase price, but we'll assume you paid a market retail value for the car. I'll also assume that you intended to purchase a nice example. If this is the case, and if key things aren't as repesented by the seller, you may quickly get "over your head" (i.e., exceed the retail value of the car with repairs) if the car requires more than a minimal restoration effort. Unless you have lots of disposable income (or even if you don't), this is not advisable or practical.

First, be <span style="font-style: italic">absolutely</span> sure the car is safe to drive. If you don't have the skill to do this, pay someone who does (maybe free, find a buddy in your local LBC club to help). There are plenty of sources for this kind of work and practically any professional mechanic, with or without LBC savvy, can do it. Someone who knows what they're doing can perform a complete inspection in an hour or less.

The key systems must be carefully checked, and I'd prioritize the inspection in this order of importance:

1) <span style="font-weight: bold">Suspension/frame/body</span>. This is where the serious/debilitating money lurks: if frame or body panels are rusted through (i.e., deeper than surfact rust), it's problematic. And, if rust compromises the frame at key points where the suspension components attach, the car may be hazardous to drive.

All suspension components, front and rear, should be carefully inpected for wear, corrosion, functionality. It is most helpful to get the car up in the air on a lift for the suspension inspection, and well worth any reasonable expense to do so.

2) <span style="font-weight: bold">Engine</span>: test the compression, also maybe a leak-down test if warranted. Does it smoke at all? Start up well? Run, idle, pull and accelerate well?

3) <span style="font-weight: bold">Braking</span>: hydraulics, lines, drums, shoes, rotors, etc. Goes without saying.

4) <span style="font-weight: bold">Electrics</span>: does everything electric work well? What does the wiring look like, is it in good condition?

The above should always be done <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">before</span></span> any antique car is purchased. If you see rust, there's probably more behind what you see. However, if the rust you mention in the floor pans is surface rust, you can take a wire wheel to it, prime and paint it and it's good as new. Ditto with additional surface rust. No problemo.

But, if the rust has penetrated below/into a metal surface you have a big decision to make. What to do next depends on your budget. Most importantly, don't get over your head in the car's value. There's no need to do this.

If rust is pervasive it may be prudent to sell this car and buy a nicer example. Rust abatement is serious business and very costly, especially when the rust is bad. In many cases, it's simply best to sell the car as is and find a better example. More fun, less money.

Your first step is a thorough inspection as I mention above. Then, when everything is assessed and diagnosed, then it's decision time.

Please keep us informed and good luck!

 

[walshja]

Mike, regardless of the items you listed, that's one very nice looking bugeye !!

 

[Mike]

Thanks Guys.

TD Skip:
The rust was found at what appears to be a hollow channel running parallel with the car under the passenger side. The actual rust seems to have eaten part of the bottom of the channel , not up through the floor board, that runs back to front under the seat.

Guys:
How much is a fully restored 58 Bug Eye worth?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Big o can of worms. What do you mean by "restored"?

 

[drooartz]

Mike, a fully restored Bugeye could go for anywhere from $10k to $20k depending on a lot of things, with most I've seen going for the mid teens or so. Especially good work or an especially original car will push that number up to the top of the range.

In the end, enjoy the car for what it is. Most of us have more into our cars than we could sell them for, but that's not too big a cause for worry. They're fun little cars, and that's why we're here. Enjoy your Bugeye!

 

[WALTER]

Re: How much would it cost/Did I make a good purch

Hi Mike,
Congratulations on you're purchase. Very sharp! I think you've received some very good advice, especially regarding safety issues. I think if you were to strip and repaint at this point you would have way more into it than you could sell it for. As long as you don't contribute to more rust you should be fine. I am in a similar situation with an AH 3000. To restore it properly would cost roughly $60,000. I will drive it and enjoy it. When finances allow I may sell it and buy a nicer one. I don't have the patience to do it my self. Restoring my '62' Sprite taught me that. On the other hand, I still think it's a cheaper hobby than playing golf even if you do put too much money into it you'll get most of it back. It's all about justification lol.

Have fun.
Walter

 

[texas_bugeye]

I would change ALL the fliuds on the car. Could be the worng stuff in the tranny. In any case I would dump everything and start fresh before I would dig to deep. Make sure you refill every thing with the correct wieght and type.
Make sure to find out what type of brake and clutch fluid are present . Somebody chime in on how to test for Dot type as I dont have the info.
Some people paintup the under side and under the hood in hopes the bling look would help sell the car when in fact it just makes you question why?. Its fifty years old, unless it was was a down to the shell resto and I can see it wasn't you are going to find some things are wrong. Change fluids give it a check as stated above and enjoy the car make sure to check all wear items expect to pay a couple hundered to insure your saftey. Remember these cars should be looked at as hobbies not investments. Not yet....
I think you did ok.
Nice car enjoy it!!

 

[WALTER]

Re: How much would it cost/Did I make a good purch

The hydraulic fluid should be either dot 4 or dot 5. I believe dot 5 is purple. Do not mix them.

Walter

 

[pakiwi]

Re: How much would it cost/Did I make a good purch

Mike,
My father gave me some good advise when I complained about some of the issues with my car. About the noises it made he said "turn up the radio, what do you expect its a 35 year old car. There are going to be things that need to be fixed and will continue even if its in perfect shape." Your car looks fine and if it runs with good compression, stops safely, then you are off to a good start. One thing I would like to see a little better is the gap between the doors and what this looks like around the doors. You want to make sure your carrying a fire extinguisher, just in case.
As stated, you want to change all of the fluids in the car, make sure the brakes are in good condition and get the fuel line checked.
I bought a car that has only done 18,000 miles thinking I would have plenty of life in the car. The previous owner had it for 20 years and his wife never liked it and he drove it now and again, got the oil changed and after the clutch seized on him, he decided to fix the clutch and get rid of it. His wife bought him a Mercedes convertible to replace it.
The one issue with lack of use can mean that parts aren't being used and seize. I had to replace the Master Cylinder and a slave in the rear. I have a little bit of rust, but that can be taken care of. The fun is in the driving and doing what is needed to keep it running safely. I had to replace the tyres this year, because of dry rot, but now I feel comfortable driving on the highway. Next year I have the 5 speed upgrade to complete.
Lots of fun, life is short and enjoy it, I know most of us do with our cars on the road.
Allan

 

[Sarastro]

Re: How much would it cost/Did I make a good purch

You have an extraordinarily good looking bugeye!

I think you'll sort out the transmission problem fairly quickly, and most of the rest of the problems are pretty minor, except for the rust, maybe. If the one area is all there is, it probably can be fixed adequately a number of ways. I'd talk to a body shop that deals with older cars and see what your options are. I know it's sacrilege here to use the word "fiberglass," but some such temporary fix may be most sensible--let the next owner, who wants to do a nut & bolt restoration, take care of it the more permanent way.

But, of course, be sure that's the only place that's rusty. As Mark suggests, rust in other places can be a greater problem.

Oh, BTW, I think it's arguably worth $10K. But in either way, that's water over the dam, so forget it and enjoy the car. Fist person who pulls up beside you at a stop light and says, "Wow, that is SO cool!" will make the whole purchase worthwhile, whatever it cost.

 

[Mike]

Re: How much would it cost/Did I make a good purch

After all your comment I'm feeling like a proud owner! Almost finished installing the carpet sets. I'll begin changing the fluids this week (great suggestion). Thanks again guys, I'll keep you posted on my work.

Mike

 

[Pythias]

Re: How much would it cost/Did I make a good purch

Mine is a driver. I asked my 25 year old niece how much she thought the car was worth. She said $40,000? Nope says, closer to $4000.. She asked why wouldn't EVERYONE buy one at that price?.. Because they leak I said. Leak what? she asked. EVERYTHING. Everything? Yup, what's supposed to stay out leaks in, what's supposed to stay in leaks out...

DRIVE THE CAR.


Allocate about $100 a month. Think of it as a car payment. Take your time and get it to YOUR satisfaction.

This may sound like heresy, but .. It's OK to be the DPO. All that matters is if you make YOURSELF happy with the car. To some that means a concours restoration. For others all that matters is that it will go from point A to point B. Some want FAST, Some want fuel effeciency. IT'S YOUR CAR, not anyone elses.

 

[mxp01]

Mike:

I would echo many of the sentiments here, especially that it is your car and you should determine your level of comfort with its restoration. Among the BEST bugeye restorations I have seen (a gentleman named Mark Endicott in Middle Tennessee has a dazzler) many are not concours. They include disc brake, 1275, sway bar, wheels, and even super charger upgrades. All with the aim of making the car better/safer/faster.

Just to comment on a few of your points:

- I would recommend against DOT 5. I used it, causing swelling of rubber parts in the brake/hydraulic system that only cleared up after I switched to DOT 4.

- The shifting/non-shifting could be either a bad clutch, MC, or tranny. I'd attack it one step at a time, but I eventully bought a very well rebuilt tranny for $350 last year - so replacements are available.

- I'd be a little concerned with rust in the floor boards. I'd hate to think of you as Fred Flintstone. You do sit above these sections, applying body weight regularly.

I tell people that the top end of a Bugeye is about $24K. That's what the project BE brought at Barrett-Jackson last year, and many agreed the buyer might have been a bit over enthusiastic.

Good luck,
Mike Pennell

 

[JPSmit]

The fact that you have done bikes and tractors means you are well positioned to fix the car. I completely agree with all that has been said. I just want to add about 2 cents.

1. As as been stated any 50 year old car is a work in progress. Mine is a full restoration but I am constantly amazed at what needs changing.

2. She's your baby now - no remorse - just love and enjoy her. Not for no reason did my wife name my car Ms. Triss

3. One of the most helpful things I ever read about used (not classic) cars is that when you buy one, expect to pay about $1000 doing all the things the PO didn't because he/she knew it was going to be sold. My last car (driver) cost exactly that. Sounds like about 1k of work waiting for a DIYer

I still think she is VERY pretty

 

[jvandyke]

That's a killer looking car. BEs are too cool off the bat, this color scheme is very cool.
If you bought it to drive it (like I bought mine) I suggest just scrape, prime and undercoat whatever rust you see (unless it's structural) and drive it! Tinker and drive, tinker and drive. Both my current toy ('63 Midget) and my previous (1970 Opel GT) were like yours "almost super perfect". I sweated it on the Opel, little rust underneath, some warts, but I drove it A LOT and resisted the urge to go nuts trying to fix it and lose seat time, I'm glad I did because suddenly last spring a lady turned in front of me and the car was gone, those little rust spots didn't make a bit of difference. These cars should be enjoyed and better to have a few battle scars and be on the road then sitting torn apart for years and years and not giving you joy.

PS good advice to go through the all the routine maintenance stuff. My Midget has NO oil in the gearbox when I bought it and the box went south as I drove it home.

 

[BugEyeBear]

Mike,

A couple of minor rust holes in the floorboards are not a big deal.

The passenger compartments on these cars are not exactly water tight, so water does tend to accumulate under the carpets and under the seats. As long as the floors feel solid & the seats are firmly held in place you should be fine.
As a general rule, if it feels like you could fall thru replace the floors. Replacement panels are readily available, and I'd guess that most of the Spridgets out there have had the floors replaced AT LEAST once.

More important to check that the major structural areas of the body are intact. Door sills (the box sections running the length of the car under the doors), suspension mount points, and any of the HEAVY sheetmetal stuff needs to be solid. On BugEyes one key area that is prone to rust thru is where the rear springs mount to the body (just in front of the rear wheels). This area is one of the first places I check on a potential purchase. I've seen some cars where the sheetmetal here was almost nonexistant ("YIKES!") but the car was still managing to somehow hold together...


If you look the car over & the rust areas appear to be only cosmetic, just make note of them, treat them to prevent further decay, and plan on fixing when you do the next repaint.

Regarding the other mechanical items, all seem pretty minor.
Your clutch/trans issue is the 1st thing I'd tackle.
As long as you do the work yourself it shouldn't cost you too much to fix.

OVERALL, just remember that owning one of these cars WILL require that you get your hands dirty. And YES, you will get frustrated at times and you might even wish you'd bought a Miata instead! BUT as long as you consider all the time spent to be part of the JOY of owning one of these cars you'll soon be as addicted as the rest of us!!

ONE MORE THING... We are all here to help in any way possible! :thumbsup:
I think you'll find this group of owners to be the friendliest and most helpful bunch ANYWHERE! (I can just about GUARANTEE that the guys over on the Miata forum won't be even half as helpful!!)
AND we drink better beer!

"Cheers!"

-Bear-

BTW: My '60 street Iris Blue BugEye is almost perfect. This was a CALIF car it's entire life, and has been sold in the past via some of the better know collector car auction houses on the west coast. Even this car has a hole in the driver's floorboard... (& a few other cosmetic flaws that are the result of DRIVING IT! I consider these flaws to be a badge of honor, as she is NO LONGER restricted to being a "trailer queen"! (I'll fix these items at the next full restoration..) :wink:

 

[walshja]

just to echo some comments that already have been made, change all the fluids in the car. it'll take you an afternoon to change the following:

engine oil - I use Mobile Synthetic
engine coolant
transmission - I use the same Mobile Synthetic
rear differential

get your grease gun out and hit all the grease nipples in the front suspension (should be 6). and hit the nipple for your emergency brake (under the car towards the rear). Also adjust your rear brake while you have the car jacked up, when I got my car my rear brakes were not grabbing at all to do being out of adjustment.

get yourself to a point where you know the car is properly maintained and enjoy.

post more pictures !!

joe

 

[Jim_Gruber]

You forgot the grease fitting for the U-Joint, I believe there are two of them.

Oil weight is 20W - 50W. Same stuff goes in the tranny. 90 Weight in the Differential

Brake/Clutch Fluid DOT 3 Castrol LMA