Facet electric fuel pump - need advice

[roofman]

I am thinking about upgrading to an electric fuel pump set up on my 72 Tr6. I have heard Facet makes good pumps. Which model is the best ( or correct flow ) for the tr6? Where is the best mounting point in the car? Should some sort of shut off precaution be taken in event of accident? Any good or bad expieriences with electric pumps? As you can see i have questions for the braintrust. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[MarkT]

To give a half-answer, as I've also been looking into this recently.... I'm guessing you have a non-PI engine, as the PI system will already have a electric pump. I've read good things about the Facet pumps, although others (Bosch, unbranded makes from NAPA) are available. It should be mounted as low and as near to the tank as possible, with the popular mounting point being in the front left of the spare wheel well. You'll also almost certainly need a fuel regulator to mesh the pumped high-pressure fuel to the correct pressure for the carbs, and then rig a return to the gas tank for the rest of the fuel. You'll need to rig high-pressure line between the pump and the regulator, and a pre-pump filter is also a good idea.

It would be a very sensible idea to install some kind of inertia switch, which would shut off the flow in the event of a collision. A drawback - a nasty pothole could also set it off, but they are easy to reset. Recommendations are scrounging around late-model injection cars at the local scrappy.

Hope this goes some way to answer your question.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[PeterK]

Too much pressure will result in gas being pushed out the SU or Strombergs so a regulator is required. Our cars need about 1.5psi. I run a facet 2-4psi model pump with a Holley regulator with the optional fuel pressure gauge mounted. Facet needs and inlet filter as well as a filter up front for the carbs. They are loud (click sound) until the car start and then you can't hear them.

Mount as Mark said and use an inertial switch or remote toggle to turn them off in case of an accident. You don't want them pumping out gas if you crash so you need some method to automatically shut them off. There are also oil pressure based switches available that shut them down when oil pressure goes below a specific level.

 

[DNK]

Unless you are running a larger carb set up the electric fuel pump is not really needed. the mechanical one is just fine for the stock carbs. Beside all the work to run the wires to the pump and then set up an auto kill switch plus replumb the fuel lines is alot of work. The Facet is a noisey little bugger too. There are better ones out there.
just my 2 cents
don

 

[hondo402000]

I installed a carter electric pump on my 6, installed it in the trunk, there is a mounting plate on the left side of the fuel tank that worked great. I also added another oil pressure switch so when there is no oil pressure the pump will not run, like if you have the acc switch on. works fine but I also have triple weber

 

[roofman]

It does sound like a bit of work and engineering. My car is bone stock. Is there any real preformance gains from adding the electric system?

 

[swift6]

[ QUOTE ]
It does sound like a bit of work and engineering. My car is bone stock. Is there any real preformance gains from adding the electric system?

[/ QUOTE ]

No performance gains really, unless you are having a vapor lock issue.

As for potholes tripping inertia switches... With the kind of pothole that would trip an inertia switch, I would take the shut down as a sign to stop and check out the car suspension and possibly chassis for damage. Seriously, unless the inertia switch is mounted poorly a pot hole shouldn't trigger it. If it does, then it might not be properly mounted or you have found an overly sensitive one.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

P.S. I actively dodge potholes. With the ground clearance my TR6 has it is a necessity to watch the road for potholes, dips and bumps.

 

[Geo Hahn]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any real preformance gains from adding the electric system?

[/ QUOTE ]

As noted, none. As to reliability, the mechanical pumps are dead-simple and rarely fail once they are properly rebuilt. On a car that has sat a long time the diaphragm may be dodgy but on an original pump that is all I have ever experienced.

Repro/aftermarket pumps are another matter and on those I have had the shaft pin fall out and a check-valve fall out.

I now have original AC pumps that I have rebuilt and consider them quite reliable. That said, I still carry a cheapo electric pump with a length of line on each end in the unlikely event of a failure. Pops on in a minute cause who wants to change a mech pump on the side of the road after dark in the rain?

 

[dklawson]

I have the square (metal transformer looking) Facet pump on both my GT6 and the Mini. As stated above... they are noisy buggers. SU electrics have a nice pleasant "tick-tick-tick" that slows and stops when the float bowls are full. By comparison... Facets go "WRAP-WRAP-WRAP-WRAP" fast and non-stop as long as the ignition is on.

While the GT6 has Strombergs, the Mini has SUs and I purchased 2-4 psi Facet pumps for both. I was unaware that the 6-cylinder Triumphs needed pressure as low as 1.5 psi as stated above. Perhaps I should install a regulator... but so far my float valves seem to have been up to the task of preventing flooding.

Regarding the comment above about using a used fuel pump from a fuel injected car... Don't. Fuel injection pumps run much higher pressures than are required or safe for these cars. Fuel injected cars have a regulator to drop the pressure to an acceptable level and use a return line to the fuel tank for excess gasoline.

Safety switches are a good idea but weren't typically employed on LBCs from the 1960s and 1970s. BMC cars of this period used SU pumps typically with no interlocks for roll-over, inertia, or low oil pressure. I'm not a fan of the oil pressure switches anyway unless they allow the pump to run in short bursts while cranking. The real attraction of the electric pump to me is that it can fill the float bowls prior to engaging the starter. This is important to me because my cars may sit for weeks between outings.

As stated above, a fuel filter should be placed between the tank and the pump's intake. However, this caused me a problem once. Prior to installing the Facet on the GT6 I had a Carter gear-rotor pump (NAPA). It cost a lot more than the Facet but it made a more pleasant "whine" while running. My pre-pump filter plugged up and blocked fuel flow to the pump. The gear-rotor pumps need the flowing gas to cool their insides. By the time my float bowls ran dry the pump had melted internally. When my Facet pumps finally fail I'll probably look for the Carter pumps if I can still find them.

 

[Claus]

Would you please name some as I am in the same situation as roofman and have been looking at Facet pumps but would prefer to go another way.

Regards,

Claus

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you are running a larger carb set up the electric fuel pump is not really needed. the mechanical one is just fine for the stock carbs. Beside all the work to run the wires to the pump and then set up an auto kill switch plus replumb the fuel lines is alot of work. The Facet is a noisey little bugger too. There are better ones out there.
just my 2 cents
don

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[roofman]

DKLawson, what kind of a cheepo back up do you carry?

 

[dklawson]

I have no backup for my fuel pump apart from a AAA card for towing. You can get the Facet pumps at places like Advance, NAPA, and Pep Boys. I figure that with a credit card, a c-clamp to pinch off the fuel line, and the wrenches in my cars I can replace the pump almost anywhere I care to travel with my LBCs.

 

[DNK]

I have one for sell. Never been used.
Don

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi,

You simply need the 4 psi model of Facet. They make four or five models, with different ratings. So just look for this one.

Facet can be a little noisy if mounted directly on a body panel or the car's frame where the noise reverberates. However, there are rubber isolators available for mounting the pump, which will reduce noise a lot and also might help protect the pump from bumps.

Any electric pump needs to be below the bottom fuel tank, never beside it. Many put it in corner of the spare tire well on TRs. That means some more hose fittings coming into the trunk of the car, which I didn't like, so instead I have the Facet installed on the indoard side of the rear shock absorber bracket on my TR4 (would need to be a different mounting point on later cars). Some care was needed to keep hoses clear of the rear axle and exhaust system, but I prefer to have the pump completely outside the car body. This is also about as low as it can go, plus there is plenty of room to feed it with dual hoses (an anti- surge setup) from the fuel tank, and through a big Fram fuel filter. Eventually there might be a redundant pump added, to share the work and act as a fulltime backup. Facet are so small, this is no problem.

The low pressure Facet do not require any sort of return fuel line back to the gas tank (those are needed with some high volume and nearly all higher pressure/fuel injection type pumps). The original, single fuel line will do in this case.

Because my car has an SCCA/FIA kill switch, I won't bother with an inertia switch, but am wiring in a toggle on the dash and have considered a low-oil-pressure-activated switch.

Agreed, a fuel pressure regulator mounted somewhere close to the carbs probably needed. There are various of these, I'm using a Holley right now. If your car tends to flood after installing an elec pump, this is most likely due to too much pressure and a regulator is needed. ISTR 2-2.5 psi for SU/ZS, but that might be incorrect. I've been using Webers at 3-3.5 psi quite a while.

With respect to the wiring, a relay might be a good idea. I think more important is don't use a fuse, instead use an automatically resetting circuit breaker. These are pretty widely available. I think a 20 amp is plenty for a single facet pump. If the breaker kicks for some reason, it resets at the flip of the ignition key, rather than having to replace a fuse. (I'm using the same type breaker on the elec cooling fan.)

The SU electric pump is an alternative, although it's much larger. These are better now that they are fully solid state. The old ones had points that needed servicing pretty frequently. There are single and double-ended SUs. The latter were sort of a high performance pump, higher volume but also if one side failed the other would (probably) continue to work.

There are many other brands and types of pumps, some appropriate, some not. I've got a Weiand pump out in the garage that's a little like the SU pump in appearance, and even makes a similar ticking noise, but has a neat pressure adjuster built-in right on top, eliminating the need for a separate regulator. WOrks fine, I only replaced it because it's 25+ years old (and still keep it as a spare).

A previous post is correct, to never, ever install a fuel injection pump on a carbureted car. These can run from 15 psi to up, most over 45 psi and a few up over 100 psi. That's way, way too much pressure and would create a very hazardous situation in a carbureted TR's fuel system!.

By all means, I agree, if the engine is generally stock, the original, mechanical pump is usually sufficient and is pretty easily serviced and maintained. Can't say anything about the reliability of repros... Simply have never used one.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[TR6oldtimer]

On the TR4 I had years ago, the mechanical pump failed. I installed an electric pump wired through a relay in the engine compartment connected to the ignition switch, via a hidden switch under the dash. An inexpensive anti-theft device.

They could steal my top, but could not go far in the car.

 

[dklawson]

Sidebar on Wiring:
I did not take this approach when wiring my Facet pumps but an acquaintance of mine did. Lacking a suitable power source to tap into at the rear of the car my friend spliced his fuel pump into the circuit for the car's tail lamps. To run the pump he had to turn his running lights (or headlights) on. It worked for him. He has a kill switch on his car but considered this a secondary anti-theft system (as long as someone wasn't stealing the car at night!)

Again, I didn't go this route but it has been done.