Spinning starter motor

[zeinfeld]

When I attempted to start my TR3 for the first time this year I was sadly disappointed.
The starter motor was spinning without a problem but it never engaged to the flywheel.
I'm no stranger to cars, but since I have never had any real experience with a British car I'm kind of leery of moving forward with out some sort of research.

Solenoid?

Time for a new starter?

I would really appreciate any suggestions or comments.

Thanks in advance

 

[Geo Hahn]

I think you'll be removing the starter though first I would verify the battery is in good condition.

You will want to mention which starter you have or, if you do not know, the commission number of the vehicle. I'm guessing it is a pre-TS50000 car as those earlier 'bomb' starters seemed more prone to this problem.

Solenoid? Time for a new starter?

I do not think the solenoid would cause this and (as these starters are quite rebuildable and new ones may be non-existant) worst case is some work on the current unit.

 

[dklawson]

I know nothing about the TR3 but I am sure they were made when the standard starter was the inertia type with a Bendix unit. If the starter motor itself is spinning and spinning "fast", the problem is likely to be the Bendix unit.

On the assumption that the battery is fully charged and things like the headlights appear "normal" and bright, I would remove the starter motor and clean the Bendix unit on the starter motor shaft using mineral spirits. Get it soaking wet, work the gear around by hand and continually flush the unit with fresh mineral spirits. Once you stop seeing grease and oil and dark stuff come out with the rinse, blow the Bendix dry with compressed air. Do not oil it. Go the the hobby shop and buy a tube of powdered graphite. Spray that powder all over the splines the gear moves on and work the graphite powder in by manipulating the gear. Then put the starter in and try again to start the engine.

 

[Geo Hahn]

On the other hand, if it is an early (pre-50K) starter a common 'failure to launch' is that rubber-filled sleeve assembly -- supposed to be a sort of shock absorber for the works but the rubber innards can break down and allow the pinion to slip.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Okay -- a peek at Mr Zeinfeld's profile reveals he has a 1958 TR3A which will have the early 'bomb' starter and that rubber-packed sleeve. Back when replacements for these were NLA I fixed mine by jamming it full of strips of inner tube. Worked fine like that for 25 years before I had the starter out for other service and replaced it. At least I think I replaced it.

 

[dklawson]

Proving once again that British car owners never throw anything out. You never know when you might need the old bit of inner tube!

 

[zeinfeld]

First off, I would like to thank everyone for the help, I really do appreciate it.

This week I will remove the starter and evaluate as recommend.

I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Thanks again.

 

[Don Elliott]

Try to turn the engine a few degrees using the hand-crank. Failing this, put it in gear (say 4th) and rock the car back and forth to turn the engine a bit. It may be that the starter pinion is spinning where there is a bit more wear on the ring gear on the flywheel. I'd try this as the first try - easiest and cheapest. BTW I needed to replace the rubber sleeve to fix my starter and ordered two from Moss. That day was 9/11 and no planes were flying. It took two weeks before I got them but by this time I had taken out my starter and I MIG welded the parts into one piece. (No inner tube here !) I drove it like that with no problems for about 6 months till I had the time to put in one of the new spares.

 

[zeinfeld]

Thanks Don. I will definetly try that first.

 

[Don Elliott]

This problem you have reminds me of the time I was driving TS2, the 2nd TR2 ever built. This was during a trip to UK in July 2011 when the owners of TS2 (The TR Register) loaned me the use of TS2 for 23 days and I drove it 2088 miles. For the last 17 days the top and sidecurtains were stowed in the "boot". A few days before I was to give it back, the starter would spin but it wouldn't engage. The car was covered by the TR Register's rescue plan and a tow truck came to pick up the TR. It was the starter motor. My first thoughts were that the rubber device in the starter had failed. But no. This starter was a fairly new high-torque starter (not at all like the original long starter with the "bomb-like" nose) and the clip holding the pinion gear to the rotating part of the starter had fallen off. They put in a new starter and sent the bill to the TR Register who own the car. So if you find you have a newer type high-torque starter, it may only be the clip which has fallen off. Depending on the design, you may be able to put it back on when you get it out to work on a bench. But I can't promise that it wouldn't fall off again.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...The car was covered by the TR Register's rescue plan and a tow truck came to pick up the TR. It was the starter motor. My first thoughts were that the rubber device in the starter had failed. But no. This starter was a fairly new high-torque starter...

A modern high-torque starter on TS2? Mercy! Did they also eliminate the hole in the radiator?

 

[Don Elliott]

That's right Geo. I couldn't believe it. But then there are so many different TR owners and members of the TR local groups who drive it in special events etc. and they also drive it to these events. So The TR Register wanted TS2 to be reliable. In this case it wasn't reliable. But it had been driven over 40,000 miles since its restoration 10 years earlier when this happened to me. It was a joy to drive especially the five trips up The Harewood Hillclimb - AT SPEED ! I never checked the hole in the radiator but I know a lot of TR owners have had theirs re-cored and to make it look like the hole is there, the cut and glue on a 1.5 by 1.5 piece of old inner tube where it makes it look that a hole is there. Another useful reason not to throw away of items - such as inner tubes.

 

[Don Elliott]

https://www.triumphmontreal.com/docs/Pages_from_Spring_2012_Ragtop.pdf - In case you want to read about my trip. On the cover that's me "fording" a creek with about 6" of water spraying outwards about 6 feet.

 

[zeinfeld]

Starter update.

Success!

I cleaned the entire starter and soaked the all of the disassemble Bendix parts in cleaner overnight. Since none of the essential parts seemed to show any real noticeable wear, I only replaced the rubber-filled sleeve. At just over $20 it didn't seem like to much of a risk. The next day I dried and reassembled the Bendix unit "dry" as was recommended in the shop manual I have.

Last night I reinstalled the starter and after only about 2 to 3 seconds of "cranking" the car sputtered to life.

Two notables on this great occasion.

One is, the car had been sitting idle for the entire winter. By my count about six months in total.

Second, the starter has never spun as quickly or easily. I guess all it needed was a little TLC and parts cleaner.

I would like to thank everyone for their input, guidance and expertise on this.

I am sure I'm going to have more questions in the following months.

Thanks again,

Rob

 

[Geo Hahn]

...Second, the starter has never spun as quickly or easily. I guess all it needed was a little TLC and parts cleaner.

Congrats & good for you for not giving up on the Lucas unit. I suspect more than a few hi-torque starters have been sold to owners whose Lucas starter just needed a simple rebuild or basic cleaning.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Congrats & good for you for not giving up on the Lucas unit. I suspect more than a few hi-torque starters have been sold to owners whose Lucas starter just needed a simple rebuild or basic cleaning.