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smog equipment

gcan

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I have a 74 B and am considering removing the canister and all smog connections. I do not have to have it inspected and am not sure of the value it provides. I am restoring the B but do not plan to enter any shows or such.
What would e wrong with removing this and if I do what do I do about lines and the fuel tank vent in the trunk?
Greg
 
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I am assuming that you mean the carbon canister and the evaporative loss container in the boot. This equipment does not hinder the performace of your MGB. I would recommend keeping it.
 

PAUL161

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I agree with Rick. Removing the cannister and attaching lines, if you have them already, should not be done. They have no effect on the performance of the engine whatsoever. They do remove gas vapors off the top of the gas tank and send them to the carburetors to be burnt off and not into the atmosphere. Same with the complete emissions system. I've run my car with it and with out it and contrary to what some people say, unless your building a race car, there is no difference in performance if the engine is tuned properly. My 72 is as it came from the factory with all the emissions equipment on it and it runs great. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif PJ

72eng2.jpg
 
OP
G

gcan

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One of the reasons I am considering is I do not have the air pump, PO must have removed, so the line coming out of the gulp valve has a bolt stuck in the end.
So I am considering either removing what is there or buy the air pump and whatever conncets off of it....I want to either do it right or not at all and I haven't priced completing the system yet.
Any recommendations
 

PAUL161

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A used air pump is around $50. I think a new gulp valve is about the same. Contact Tony at www.theautoist.com and he will give you prices on the parts you need. New or used. He's in Gurley Alabama. Maybe not that far from you. It's hard to beat his prices and his knowledge on MGBs. Oh yea, if you go this route, try and buy a good used hose that goes from the pump to the gulp valve. Tony might have one of these also. I havent found a new one yet. PJ
 

jjbunn

Jedi Knight
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I'm not sure it really matters, but, technically, isn't removing the emissions gear illegal?

If it isn't then I'd like to rip the remnants of Harold's out: it's only partially complete anyway.
 

Rick_Stevens

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Julian - Your car is smog exempt in CA. As the law stands right now, it won't be tested or inspected. Even with the stuff fully operational and in place, there is a LOT of controversy as to whether or not it actually does more than spoof the tailpipe sniffers.

If it was intact and worked, I'd say keep it in the car. It does no harm at all, and "MAY" work as advertised. If it's incomplete - pull it or replace the missing bits to make it operational.

R.
 

swift6

Yoda
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[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure it really matters, but, technically, isn't removing the emissions gear illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically yes, regardless of whether or not it is tested, removing ANY emissions equipment is a Federal violation. Will you get in trouble, most likely not. The Feds leave it up to individual states to enforce and states have to balance EPA standards for clean air (at minimum) and taxpayer appeasement. Like any other law, it is really only as effective as its enforcement. If the Federal government wanted to they could prosecute everyone of us that is missing emissions equipment on our cars. But they have MUCH bigger things to worry about and the cost to do so would be far more than the fines they could acceptably levy. So really its a technicality more than anything else.

Removing the charcoal canister will have a big effect on the cars emissions though not necessarily tailpipe emissions. Especially while its not running and sitting in the garage you'll notice a strong gas smell as you would be letting the gas tank vent directly to atmosphere instead of through the charcoal filter.
 

jlaird

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Ahh, shoot guys. Get rid of the smog equip as soon as you can. The car will run better, get better milage, and have more power.

Our lovely gov can't even get rid of the folks that should not be here. If you are exempt due to age or state law, the heck with it.
 

Stewart

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There is a outside chance of the chp digging under the hood if they stop you for another reason and if they do find the gear missing its a very nasty fine. However with an older car you more than likely would have to be a complete and total other name for a donkey to the officer or street racing for them to look. They have been cracking down hard on the rice rice baby crowd. So unless you wise off, sport a ton of useless gauges on the a piller have a huge ugly bumper on the front, a wing from a 747 on the back, neon lights underneith and more vinal on your car than a overstocked sticker factory it's nothing to really worry about.
 

eschneider

Jedi Warrior
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I prefer to delete the smog gear for reasons of simplicity and under-the-hood tidyness.

Smog pumps, egr's, catalytic converters - if I can get away with it, they're gone. But it is a matter of personal preference.

I would also agree, though, that the carbon canisters don't have much negative effect. If you do remove them - you will have a gassy smell around the car to deal with. You might be able to contain it by simply using the vapor seperator on the passenger side of the trunk, though.

Just my $0.02
 
OP
G

gcan

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"If you do remove them - you will have a gassy smell around the car to deal with. You might be able to contain it by simply using the vapor seperator on the passenger side of the trunk, though."

Anybody else have a comment on the above statement about the gas smell? I keep my car in a garage attached to the house. I have the vent in the trunk, the canister, and the gulp but do not have the air pump. I would rather remove the canister instaed of spending the $$ to complete the emmission system. But do not want the garage to smell like gas
 

jlaird

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Shucks folks, you are only going to smell gas if you have leaks or seeps. Maintain your baby properly and no smells. Even the engine room will smell like a new born just after moma took care of it.

No excuse for a stinky car, clean it up.
 
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You can de-smog your MGB without removing the evap canister or the carbon canisters. John Twist at one time had the insructions on his UML website. You might look there.

Involved plugging the air rail holes in the head, a solid gasket under the gulp valve, and timing the car at 15* BTDC at 1500rpm with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged (while setting the timing...then reattach) if I remember correctly.
 

Rob_Edwards

Jedi Hopeful
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As stated, removing the smog pump may free up a little performance, but nothing you will be able to detect without a dyno. None of the other equipment on you car can detract from performance (assuming it's working properly). As for "cleaning up the engine bay", I find that the most selfish, arrogant, and irresponsible reason for doing it. Only you see your engine bay, but we all breathe your pollution. It's no different than saying "I don't like the way garbage cans look in my back yard, so I'm just going to throw all my trash in your yard." Do you like people's litter in your yard?

I think that if we want to drive these cars, we owe it to ourselves, each other, and out children to use them responibly, I think that the responsible thing to do is to make sure all emissions gear is intact & functioning. I don't want to breathe your pollution, so I want to see your emissions gear in place. I respect you enough that I don't want you to breathe my pollution, so all my emissions gear is in place.

I'm researching right now how to install a catalytic converter on the B, and a cat and PCV system on the TD....
 

swift6

Yoda
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[ QUOTE ]
I'm researching right now how to install a catalytic converter on the B, and a cat and PCV system on the TD....

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want to maintain performance or just feel better about your emissions? If your concern is emissions then it is an easy switch on the B. Tony probably has a complete set up he could sell you from a late model B.

You really should give it a lot more thought though. Catalytic converters really are not that efficient when used with carburettors. They became MUCH more emissions efficient when they were paired with fuel injection that could adjust the air/fuel mixture appropriately to keep the catalytic converter working properly. So if reduced emmissions is truly your goal and you want to fit cats to your B and even your TD, then you should also toss the carbs and install a fuel injection system. Again, easy on the B with the new Moss kit but would be pretty involved on the TD.

A word of warning on adding a catalytic converter to a TD. When cats get too much fuel or begin to plug up they can glow cherry red. That puts out quite a bit of heat. Which happens very easily when mixing carbs and cats. Not a good idea when you still have a wooden body.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

eschneider

Jedi Warrior
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[ QUOTE ]
As stated, removing the smog pump may free up a little performance, but nothing you will be able to detect without a dyno. None of the other equipment on you car can detract from performance (assuming it's working properly). As for "cleaning up the engine bay", I find that the most selfish, arrogant, and irresponsible reason for doing it. Only you see your engine bay, but we all breathe your pollution. It's no different than saying "I don't like the way garbage cans look in my back yard, so I'm just going to throw all my trash in your yard." Do you like people's litter in your yard?

I think that if we want to drive these cars, we owe it to ourselves, each other, and out children to use them responibly, I think that the responsible thing to do is to make sure all emissions gear is intact & functioning. I don't want to breathe your pollution, so I want to see your emissions gear in place. I respect you enough that I don't want you to breathe my pollution, so all my emissions gear is in place.

I'm researching right now how to install a catalytic converter on the B, and a cat and PCV system on the TD....

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I sense that you feel strongly about this. (sarcastic humor meant to lighten the tone a tad)

I should point out that EGR valves INCREASE HC and CO while reducing combustion temperatures in an attempt to reduce NOx emissions.

And yes, removing an EGR valve can increase volumetric and thermal efficiency well enough to be seen on a dyno, if done correctly.

As for smog pumps, thir purpose was to add additional oxygen molecules to the exhaust stream so that the catalytic converter had the raw materials needed to convert HC and CO into H2O and CO2. CO2 is now being blamed as the primary cause for global warming in the media (even though the concept was scientifically debunked int he 1980's). A modern catalytic converter does not require a smog pump, which is why you don't see them anymore. Furthermore, ctalytic coverters are completely ineffective above 60mph. The exhuast stream moves too fast for the coversion to occur. Last, catalytic converters create sulfuric acid in the conversion process. This is what was referred to in the 80's as the "acid rain" effect.

If you remove the evaprative systems from every car in the world, it would release fewer hydrocarbon particles than a single petroleum refinery.

Although I hate A/C, it is also worth mentioning that if you had released all of the R-12 refrigerant out of every car so equipped in 1997 (when R-134a was introduced) it would have caused less damage to our atmosphere than a single firing of the space shuttle.

Particulate emissions from diesel engines account for far greater amounts of noxious emissions than gasoline powered vehicles, and yet in most states they are unregulated.

Industrial pollutants account for some 100-fold the emissions generated by automobiles, and yet our current administration has lessened the environmental burdens on big businesses, most notably on the coal burning power generation industry.

it is also well documented that the largest polluter world-wide is the US governement, particularly (but not exclusively) the military.

The focus on the war against pollution has been against the automobile, not because it was the largest polluter, but because it was the path of least resistance. The public doesn't fight the additional costs of vehicular equipment and annual emissions inspections. Industry does fight these things, and expends large amounts of money and political influence to do so.

As for EGR valves, catalytic converters, and smog pumps - these were all bolt-on alternatives to pacify the EPA in order to avoid re-tooling and spending money to do the R&D necessary to build engiens with the combustion efficiency to reduce emissions properly.

The best way to reduce emissions is through combustion efficiency. You don't see these bolt-on devices (other than mo modern catalytic converters) on engines that have been recently developed. Of course, they are still there on a chevy 350.

As strongly as you feel, I feel equally as strongly in disagreement. The public has been lied to and given the blame and financial burden of a problem that automobiles are only contributing to in a minority. The largest contributor to the problem is exempt of cost and responsibility, and those who have the funds to buy their way out of responsibility have been given that alternative.

It makes me very angry that this is the way our political system resolves a problem.

It makes me more angry when the public actually beleive the propoganda they've been fed, let alone propogate it with the voracity you demonstrated. Why the motoring public accepts these costs and refues to question why the problem still exists seems the highest form of social irresponsibility.

To continue your metaphor, I'd prefer that you do not instally a catalytic converter on your car. I'd rather not have your acid rain ruin my paint, and I philosophically object to your supporting the current emissions program.

But it's your car, and I respect your choice to do with it what you please.

with respect,
Eric
 

DrEntropy

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All of the above. And more...

What I *want* to post would get me on Basil's "article 15" list...

Vacuum cleaners, babies and smog pumps suck. Almost as much as mob rule.
 

Rob_Edwards

Jedi Hopeful
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Eric,
Yes, I do feel srongly about it! ;-)

Your mention of the amount of pollution released by industy and the goverment is interesting, but I'm not going to discuss it because:1. I don't have the numbers in front of me to either support or refute it, and 2. It's irrelevant (or at least, a different battle) because seeing someone doing the Wrong Thing does not absolve us of the duty to do the Right Thing. Just because there are more egregious polluters than our cars does not give us carte blanche to dump as much crap into the air as we please. If the other sources of pollutions enrage you (as they should) then do what you can to change things -- vote! (With your dollars and your ballots). Unfortunately though, those sources are outside our direct control -- our cars are not.

As for your arguments re automotive emissions controls, are you saying that they had nothing to do with the improvement in air quality in places like Los Angeles since the '50s and '60s? If so, then it's incumbent on you to propose and defend an alternate cause.

Below is one chart I found showing the reduction in ozone since 1975. It would be better to find data back into the '50s, but a quick google search didn't turn it up. Also, it would be interesting to superimpose on this graph the increase in the number of vehicles in the LA area for the same timeframe.
figure10.gif
The accompanying text says:
[ QUOTE ]
Figure 1 shows the sharp drop in the number of exceedences of the 1-hour ozone standard in Los Angeles over the last 30 years, from 192 in 1975 to 27 last year. (Los Angeles has also shown significant progress on the recently adopted tougher 8-hour standard, with exceedences dropping from 201 in 1975 to 75 last year. The spike in exceedences seen in 2003 is attributed to a spell of hot weather and atmospheric conditions especially conducive to ozone formation.) This trend actually understates the magnitude of improvement since, under EPA rules, an exceedence at just one of the dozens of ozone monitors in the large Los Angeles air basin is enough to qualify as an exceedence for the whole airshed. In fact, there are large areas of the Los Angeles air basin where there have been no exceedences of the ozone standard for the last several years, meaning millions of residents have had no exposure to high levels of ozone. The EPA has changed its reporting language slightly to take note of this fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to bow out of this discussion, because I've expressed how I feel and have nothing else to add. I don't want this discussion to turn into a political flamewar or a discussion of conspiracy theories. I'm doing what I think it the right thing to do to try to leave the world at least as clean as I found it. Maybe I'm failing, but I'm trying. That makes me sleep a little better at night. I urge everyone else to do what your conscience tells you to do.

With respect,
Rob
 

Rick_Stevens

Jedi Trainee
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I'm gonna pretty much bow outta this one, too, other than saying I generally agree with Rob - in substance if not in form. I've been in this discussion with him before and respect his opinions and knowledge.

On the other hand I think that attacking members' input with pseudo-science is basically on a par with ridiculing their questions on other threads. It's rude. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonono.gif

You're new here, aren't you Eric?

R.
 
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