Restoring proper order to spark plug wires

[Member 10617]

At my request, the shop where I have work done on my TR3 repositioned my distributor two teeth so it is more in line with the block and gives me some room for setting the advance.

I also asked them to return my spark plug wires to the proper sequence (an earlier engine rebuild resulted in the wires being moved forward one connection on the distributor cap. Don't know why?) When I got the car back, the wires had not been repositioned... and the explanation was that it wasn't necessary.... etc., etc.

OK. So if I want to do this myself, what is involved?

 

[DNK]

You can't do it if it doesn't need it. At TDC the rotor HAS to be pointing in the general direction of #1. With only 4 pistons if you move the sequence it will change by a minimum 90degrees.
Don't think that would make you happy . And besides, you would start another thread that would carry on for months

 

[Darrell_Walker]

Hi Ed,

It means repositioning the distributor drive gear again.

The manual should have the procedure, basically get #1 TDC on the compression stroke, and then insert the gear (the one you just had moved) so that the slot is pointing to #1 (note, the drive dog is offset, so while there are positions that line the slot up, only one will allow the distributor to also point at #1). Then move the wires around.

-Darrell

 

[TR3driver]

From where you are, you would have to move the gear (again) to correct the plug wire order. As Don says, the rotor has to be pointing at the #1 plug wire when #1 is ready to fire. And with your current setup, that is almost straight back instead of roughly towards the #1 spark plug as it should be.

I would refuse to pay the shop, since they failed to do what you asked them to do. "It isn't necessary" is not a reasonable explanation if they agreed to do the work. And having failed to do the work, you shouldn't owe them anything.

You really need to be looking for a different shop.

 

[Member 10617]

Darrell,

Thanks. Sounds pretty straight forward operation.

For the time being, things seem to be working fine but when I get the chance, I'll undertake the modification. Seems odd to me (and did at the time) that the original engine rebuilder would have made these changes, but I have heard and read that it doesn't really matter as long as the firing order is correct. But I'd like to get it back to standard.

Randall,

Problem is... there aren't any other shops around here, and the one I use has an excellent national reputation. They just resist doing something that they don't think necessary, or that they believe will not improve things. For example, they refuse to substitute electronic ignition for points, etc., etc.

Don,

Ha, ha... Yes... let's not get into any more dramatic, month-long threads. For some reason, mine seem to devolve into such epics. I really do appreciate your good advice.

 

[MikeP]

What's happened is that in rotating the distributor, AND THE SHAFT, by two teeth it's still pointing to the same cap terminal for firing #1. And since rotation direction doesn't change then each plug will fire in the same order at the same time in relation to the crank/valves as before. That's why they said it wasn't necessary. To get back to the proper terminals would have meant moving the body, and changing the shaft a different amount and maybe different direction to point to another cap terminal for #1.

 

[Member 10617]

Mike.....

The more I read of these good answers, the more I'm convinced that I need to leave well-enough alone, for now, especially since the car is running extremely well (thanks to the shop's work and Jeff Schlemmer's distributor rebuild).

Thanks.

 

[TomMull]

Agree with all above and you can do this yourself. The manual gives precise directions with illustrations.
Tom

 

[Member 10617]

There's been several mentions of "the manual" with illustrations. Which manual would that be? I have the SERVICE INSTRUCTION MANUAL, and it has very brief instructions and no illustrations.

 

[Darrell_Walker]

I'd have to look to be sure, but I believe both the Haynes and the TR4 factory manuals illustrate the procedure.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...They just resist doing something that they don't think necessary, or that they believe will not improve things...

I find that having the distributor aligned per the manuals makes not only a neater appearance but a less problem prone arrangement. For one thing the wires can be shortened to lengths that assure they can only be fitted to the plugs one way (the correct way).

Apart from that, the long wires & strange routing would just bug me.

You need some local BritCar buddies to guide you on this as the best approach (IMO) is to pull the dizzy and gear out, position the engine (#1 TDC compression) and start from scratch to set-up the distributor.

But -- if it doesn't bother you then driving it 'as is' is better than disabling it.

 

[Member 10617]

George:

No TR buddies within miles of here. As a matter of fact, I have the only TR3 within about 50 miles.

My distributor is now about parallel with the head (as shown in your great photo, but the wires are, as I said, not in "proper" sequence. As they are, the wires are not excessively long. I'll either try this sometime in the future -- (TR Manual speaks of using a Woodruffe key and caution) -- or have someone do it for me. Good thought: Driving it "as is" is better than disabling it."

With the arrival of winter days, I think often of good old Tucson at this time of year. Bet the driving is great.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...No TR buddies within miles of here. As a matter of fact, I have the only TR3 within about 50 miles...

Okay Ed, I'll be your buddy. Here's an idea -- we could try a real-time Forum tech session to reposition your distributor and wires.

As it happens the distributor on my TR4 is not in the ideal position and the task of moving it a little or a lot is pretty much the same so an approach would be... on a day that works for both of us we both reposition our distributors. I would go first step by step with photos posted when needed to clarify. You would follow -- step by step -- doing what I am doing.

Here's your dizzy, looks to me to be off about 120° clockwise though by repositioning the wires the cap only looks about 30° off:

My wires are right but the body/gear is off by about 25° CCW:

The pic Randall showed would be our objective:

The procedure for both you and me is to get the engine to TDC #1 compression, remove the dizzy, pull out the gear and reinsert in the correct position (some trial and error may occur) and then reinstall the distributor. You would then rearrange your wires to the correct terminals and Viola! we should both be able to set the timing and drive.

You mentioned the Woodruff key and to be truthful I don't recall just how that shaft comes out vis a vis the gear and the oil pump shaft but I have done it before without hurting myself or the car.

We could do this in a PM or a thread here -- the latter would offer entertainment possiblilities but also give us a lifeline call or two if we get jammed up.

Let me know if you're game for this and we'll work out a schedule.

 

[DNK]

We need web cams for this.
Cool
There would be more chefs than diners

 

[TR3driver]

The Woodruff key locates the oil pump driveshaft to the intermediate gear. I find it works best for me to assemble the shaft into the gear so the key is trapped in place. Then you only have to worry about the tang on the end of the shaft engaging with the oil pump.

Here are the instructions from the workshop manual (although I don't know if they will come out legible or not):

 

[Member 10617]

George,

What an offer.... very tempting.

First: the position of my distributor. The photo I posted shows the distributor as it was before I had it repositioned yesterday at the shop north of here. The guy who worked on it moved it by two teeth and reset the timing (35 degrees total advance, 14 static). So the distributor now is more parallel to the engine block than it was in the posted photo.

As for your kind and tempting offer, I think I have to pass. I have spent so much time the last twomonths on the car, with a fair amount complications and frustration, that I'm sort of burned-out on working on it myself. Should something go wrong in our long-distance tutorial, I'd be up a creek here.

On the bright side, for the first time in nearly a year, I've finally got the car running really well... so I'm reluctant to mess with it, even though ultimately I'd like to get the wires straight.

On the other hand: I know that I and others would GREATLY appreciate your posting a step-by-step account of the process as you go through it. I, for one, would follow it carefully and take copious notes.

Don is right. We need a web cam and a YouTube for this.

Very sorry to whimp out... but my confidence level is just low at the moment, or perhaps I've simply spent too much time lately trying to solve problems with the car.

 

[3798j]

Neat position that shop is in. They don't feel the need to listen to the wishes of the customer, choosing instead to do as they please. Is it possible they charge at a premium while enjoying that great national reputation? Not since the Soup Nazi has entrepreneurship succeeded in such a manner. Only in America.

 

[Member 10617]

Actually, the situtation is not as bad as you make it out to be. What we have is a shop with a number of very experienced mechanics and a very inexperienced owner. I know that if I insisted, they would probably accede, but the outcome probably would not be good.

They're experienced mechanics and restorers, and I'm an enthusiastic owner and driver. It's a situation in which I think many people find themselves. (Perhaps the old addage, "the customer is always right," doesn't apply here, but I appreciate your point.

BTW -- I don't know why my threads always seem to become soap operas or morality plays. Ha, ha...

 

[TR3driver]

I agree with you, Jay, but that attitude seems to be common in auto repair shops (not just the LBC variety). I have the same exact problem with a local "in business since 1949", recommended by AAA, etc. shop.

For example, I had my "LBC support vehicle" towed in after diagnosing an intermittant fuel pump. They called and said there was nothing wrong with the fuel pump and I should come pick up the car. When I got there, it wouldn't start. Oops, guess it was a bad fuel pump! That's just an example, they've screwed things up enough times now that I will NOT be going back. The final straw was when they forgot to tighten the front wheel lug nuts (that they loosened after I asked them to change a rear wheel bearing). And that rear wheel bearing is still rumbling ...

 

[3798j]

I think I was misunderstood. That was envy being expressed.