Purchasing Rib Case

[Blueghost]

I believe the rib case is not bullet proof, but quite good. I know prices vary due to many factors - Supply / Demand / Honesty / Knowledge. Supply and demand are major and can't do much about either. My knowledge may have a direct impact on their honesty. And my knowledge is sorely lacking when it comes to Rib Case transmissions.
1) What is a general average cost for one that is supposed to be in "good condition when removed, shifted well, synchros seemed OK, but I really don't know anything about the history"?
2) General average cost for one that is "recently looked at by someone who knows"?
3) I have good mechanical experience, but not with Rib Case. What can I look for with out full tear down?
Obvious is drain some gear lube (if it isn't dry) and look for metal flecks. Input and output shaft radial play, but I don't know what is normal/OK. I have a dial indicator that may help. Also, look for any obvious spline wear.
Can you really see anything important by pulling side or top cover, and is it somewhat obvious if you are not familiar with what you are looking at?

 

[smaceng]

I'll try to help. Used rib case transmission, say out of a parts car, $100 to $300. The difficulty with the sprite transmission is that even when taking off the side cover.....watch out for the flying steel balls....it is nearly impossible to see all the gears to determine their quality.
Now Mini Mania lists a rebuilt rib case transmission at $1395 +$300 core. So the $300 as listed above is in the ballpark.
Also, some of the parts are very difficult to purchase....and one has to use "good" used parts. I have heard that some of the newly manufactured gears are not cut quite right, leading to excessive noise in all the gears, not just the typical 1st gear whine. Scott in CA

 

[59diamond]

Hi Scott, Would you recommend the rib cage transmission that you hauled down to my house in Bonita. My wife keeps saying what is that and how long is it going to be sitting in the garage. By the way I am thoroughly enjoying my new ride and have sold the Cherry Red Bugeye. It is sitting in my garage ready for pickup for a trip to Washington.

 

[AN5Sprite]

Ahhh Haaaa! (now I see)

Well done 59diamond, well done.

 

[AN5Sprite]

Also,

Here's a better price on a rebuilt ribcase:

https://www.quantumechanics.com/qm-htm/sprite1.htm

 

[59diamond]

What do you see Steve.

 

[AN5Sprite]

What do you see Steve.

Legitimate question. I'll be honest, nothing. :blush:

One could speculate* (as I did) from recent posts in various threads that you bought Scott's bugeye.

*I admit not always reading every post as closely as I should, so it's entirely possibly that's a bogus conclusion or something everyone else already knows and I'm late to the party. Again.

My apologies or congratulations as appropriate.

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Steve,
I won't give away any secrets but I've been playing counselor and adviser for the past few weeks. Let's just say he has a fabulous BE in his garage and a new license plate.

 

[59diamond]

I did buy Scott's Bugeye and I plan to take very good care of it. I was also lucky enough to sell my bugeye in a rather short period of time so I was the owner of two bugeye's for just a little bit. I am very very happy with the switch from my 59 to the 60 and Scott couldn't have been more of a pleasure to deal with.

 

[smaceng]

Yes, Bill did buy my BE.......he wanted it more than I did.....he had such a great story.....how could I refuse!
Back to the transmission I built up. I mixed and matched from 2 cores and bought a bunch of parts....some very hard to find. Put it all together and it operated great except for too much noise in ALL the indirect (1st, 2nd, & 3rd) gears. Since I replaced all the bearings, it was hard to believe that is was bad bearings....although it could have been. I have been told from more than one source that even if they took the box completely apart, they could not guarantee that it would not be noisy. Actually as the forensic mechanical engineer that I am, I would still like to tear into it and see if I could find out what the problem was......but how do I test it.....I sold my BE to Bill! Did I say that already? BTW I replaced the rib case with a 5-speed.
Scott in CA without a FROG

 

[59diamond]

Frog will live on and he is still in CA, just a little more south, and he has new wind wings that have "1960 FROG" etched into them. They look cool on a Bugeye and and you can get them for $91.20 including shipping from Philips Plastics in Phoenix Arizona. They clip on real easy and can be removed easy if you want to put your side curtains on. Thanks again Scott and thanks to all the fine people who post really interesting stuff on this web site. I enjoy reading it although although I am some what of a mechanical illiterate and can only contribute minor little things like wind wings.

 

[Blueghost]

Thanks for the info guys. Scott, What does "...too much noise in all gears" mean. Compared to my wife's Prius, everything makes too much noise. I assume it is way too much noise or you wouldn't have commented. I'm not at all a transmission guy, but what are the chances that by mixing two boxes you have gears that are trying hard to match up with different wear patterns, and that 2,000 miles down the road it will be normal. With all new bearings, and it sounds like you have plenty of experience with the rest of the parts, I'm guessing it can't be too bad.

I have good experience with helicopter gear boxes, and I know how critical good matching wear patterns can be. It is not something that is easily measured with a mic, but the trained eye can see the pattern, and a little bit of Dykem Blueing can tell you a lot. The trick is knowing what you are looking at. Your thoughts?

 

[smaceng]

After I put the trans together, I thought that it just need some miles.......after about 500 miles, it was no different. I was told that some sprite transmission rebuilders run the gears in with machinists blue, and then remachine the gears for a proper fit. This I was told was all due to the fact of mixing and matching parts....in reality, the parts are not interchangeable. I would like to hear from an expert on this if this scenario makes sense or is just an excuse for a poor quality rebuild.....by me!
Scott in CA

 

[Blueghost]

Machining gears - gear hobbing - is a highly specialized skill. I'm sure mechanics that regularly overhaul any transmission have a pretty good idea as to what the load pattern should look like. The size and location of the heel, toe, and load area vary from application to application. But I doubt many mechanics actually have the gear hobbing equipment to make changes. I believe in most applications the best they can do is shim a gear one way or another. I call that either gray hair, or really good books. And, as a more specialized service, transmission work always seems to be more expensive, which causes me to pull out my gray hair. I don't have any answers, just questions. Lets hear from the rib case experts.

 

[Gerard]

I've rebuilt many a ribcase, but never changed out/mixed any gears other than 1st, reverse and reverse idler (the ones that gear their teeth gnashed, mangled or broken the most). Being straight cut, first is naturally the noisiest, , but it is (or should) only used to get a little forward motion from a dead stop. These gearboxes are typically noisy, but from what I've heard from others who have tried this sort of rebuild, mixing gears from different used gearboxes does make them much worse. I've not yet heard from anyone that was satisfied pursuing this solution, and my guess is that whatever can be done to cure that, is not any easy or inexpensive solution.

It's also important to note that if you are going to try to cobble one together by combining a couple gearboxes, that not all gear sets are the same, and are therefore not interchangeable. The angle and number of teeth can be diff The gears will have numbers engraved on them, but to make matters worse, sometimes the gears have different numbers, even thought they may in fact be the same and compatible. I have some info on my web site that covers some of this, but as much as is there, I wouldn't say it's comprehensive. It will help though.

About all you can ell from removing the side cover, is checking for broken/damaged first gear, and measuring synchromesh (baulk ring) tolerance. To inspect important things like lay gear end float, and wear to the layshaft or bearings, will require complete disassembly.

It sounds to me like you have enough experience to tackle this. The shop manual will guide you through what's not obvious, and a few questions here (along with a little good luck) will probably get you through the rest. If you are after a more quiet gearbox and tremendously improved driving pleasure, consider a 5 speed swap. The Datsun gearboxes are pretty bulletproof, and even an old non-rebuilt one will be a big improvement in many ways.

https://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/TransPartsIndex.htm

https://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/TO_Bearings/tobearings.htm

 

[Blueghost]

Gerard, Great info. Nothing you said is a surprise. But hearing it from someone who really knows is great. Thanks a bunch.

I can tell from Scott's posting that he did a pretty good job with the reassembly, but just didn't know he was fighting an uphill battle. When I started this post, the second sentence mentioned Honesty. Transmission work and honesty are not always in the same paragraph. The best I can say for Scott is that he was upfront with his information, and totally honest. Thanks Scott.

Blueghost.

 

[smaceng]

Thanks Gerard and Blue.....it is always a good day when I learn something like this, as it has been like an itch on my back that I did something wrong during the rebuild. Now, just for the sake of science, is my rib case transmission worthless, or could someone of knowledge fix it? If I was to try this, I would build a test fixture to run the box at speed......I know the people with overdrives have done this with a washing machine motor driving the input shaft. Then hook up a sound meter to measure it. I wonder if the box needs to be under load.....now that make the entire experiment more difficult! Scott in CA

 

[smaceng]

So just to try to complete the circle, I talked with Quantummechanics, well know rebuilder of British transmissions, about this thread. What they told me is that because some of the gear sets will functionally go together, but not designed to do so because of wear, they match all the gears. Using gears that are not matched is what can cause the noise problem. The gear sets go by the layshaft number. Not all the gears have numbers, so it is not always obvious which ones go together. So the lesson here is, do not mix and match gear sets, or a noise problem can exist. So is Bill's rib case worthless? No, but it has to be gone through by someone who knows this stuff and the gears matched up correctly. There we go, Q.E.D.
Scott in CA