Yikes, Engine sounds Great but no oil pressure

[aaronclark]

So I just started up an engine thats been sitting for a few years, tsxxxxx in my TR3 It started up and sounded good, but no oil pressure so I shut it right down. Cracked the line to gauge and turned it over some without starting it... no oil, pulled the filter... no oil. Sump is full of oil... so pull the distributor and check the drive gear/shaft for the oil pump..... hey, no woodruf key .... the shaft isn't turning. So remedy that and assume all is good.

Turn the engine over for a while w/o starting it.... no oil going to gauge or into filter. Maybe the pump itself....swap it with one that i know works but also submerge this one in oil and turn it with a screwdriver and it spits oil out beautifully. Man, what could it be, camshaft gear is good, pump is good, drive shaft is intact.... so I pull the oil filter housing off hoping to find it clogged up or something.. . nope all is clear between the oil pump and the filter inlet.

Does anyone know, I have been testing without actually starting the engine, do you need certain rpm's to get oil out to the filter? Also for the last few tests i have left the oil pan off and just submerge the oil pump in a container of oil while a buddy runs the starter and watches for oil to come out the passageway to the filter, which it doesn't. Does the whole system need to be closed up so it can build up neccesary pressure?

I am stumped for now. Any ideas?

Thanks, Aaron

 

[TR3driver]

Takes a long time to fill all the cavities when just turning with the starter, especially if you didn't take the plugs out. You won't get any pressure with the filter head off, but should get oil in less than a minute, even with the pump just submerged in a bucket.

Since it's all apart anyway, you could remove 3 of the pump cover bolts and pivot it a bit, so you can see if the gears turn with the engine. But I'd guess you just need to crank it longer.

 

[hondo402000]

you could pull the dist and use a drillmotor and a screw driver bit, a flat one and spin the oil pump to prime the engine

 

[Adrio]

I agree with hondo, I take an aluminum shaft filed to fit the slot at the base of the dizzy hole and chuck it into a drill. Then I turn the pump with the drill unitl I have oil pressure. It takes a bit of time but then you have a lubricated system before starting. This is my standard proceedure after a long period of storage (read cold winter months that are about to arrive here in the great white north)

 

[aaronclark]

OK, thanks guys I will try as you advised.

But are you saying that i shouldn't be surprised that when turning the starter with a bucket of oil around the pump isn't pushing oil out through the hole in the block at all? If you think this is normal then i will put things back together and be sure to prime the system. I will try turning the pump faster with a drill after work.

Thanks a lot, Aaron

 

[TR3driver]

But are you saying that i shouldn't be surprised that when turning the starter with a bucket of oil around the pump isn't pushing oil out through the hole in the block at all?

No, I'm saying I don't think you've tried it long enough. You should eventually get oil this way.

I've never timed it with a stopwatch, but I would guess it takes about 30 seconds of cranking with the plugs out for the oil pressure gauge to twitch on my TR3A. And that's with the filter full. Takes longer if I've just changed the filter. Wouldn't be surprised if it takes 3 times as long with the plugs still in (as that cuts cranking rpm considerably).

 

[tomshobby]

So I just started up an engine thats been sitting for a few years, tsxxxxx in my TR3 It started up and sounded good, but no oil pressure so I shut it right down.

hey, no woodruf key .... the shaft isn't turning.

Turn the engine over for a while w/o starting it.... no oil going to gauge or into filter. Maybe the pump itself....swap it with one that i know works but also submerge this one in oil and turn it with a screwdriver and it spits oil out beautifully. Man, what could it be, camshaft gear is good, pump is good, drive shaft is intact.... so I pull the oil filter housing off hoping to find it clogged up or something.. . nope all is clear between the oil pump and the filter inlet.

I have been testing without actually starting the engine, do you need certain rpm's to get oil out to the filter? Also for the last few tests i have left the oil pan off and just submerge the oil pump in a container of oil while a buddy runs the starter and watches for oil to come out the passageway to the filter, which it doesn't.

If I read and understand this correctly, after sitting for a few years with out running you have had this engine running and been turning it over with no lubrication?

Like Hondo and Adrio said, pull the dizzy and use a drill to get oil through the engine before it is destroyed if it has not alread been.

 

[Don Elliott]

Make sure to turn the drill to REVERSE so that the oil pump is turning the correct way !

 

[aaronclark]

Yeah it did run with no lubrication for 4 or 5 seconds, i watched the gauges and killed it right away, since then i have turned it over a few times. But not anymore..... I am going to spin the pump with my drill till I (hopefully) get some oil moving around.

And from now on I will always do this with an engine that has sat for a while, it seems pretty obvious that is a best practice sort of thing.

I am going to work on it tonight and hopefully get some oil pressure...

Thanks

 

[Adrio]

Make sure to turn the drill to REVERSE so that the oil pump is turning the correct way !

Good point Don. I should have mentioned that. Thank goodness for that arrow on the rotor.

 

[Got_All_4]

I agree with all of that. You should be getting oil out of the line for the gauge even at low rpms. If it was running for only 4 or 5 seconds I wouldn't get worried yet. Oil runs into the sump after long periods of time and takes time for it to recirculate. Could have some sludge to get through. Do the drill thing first and see if oil comes out of the gauge line. Then take the plugs out and run it for a while and check your oil pressure gauge. About 1 minute max and you should have pressure.

It's always a good practice to fill the oil filter with oil first before starting the engine. Especially after an oil change. Those few moments of no oil pressure is when the majority of engine wear occurs. That's why you should never gun your engine just after starting. I do this in all my cars after changing the oil. That is fill the oil filter with oil and install. If I have time I'll pull the plugs to make it easier on the starter motor. Or pull the coil wire then crank the engine until I get oil pressure. Then I start it. No concerns then.

Another thing I'd do even if you get pressure back is to run a can of engine flush through it. The vintage oils leave a lot of varnish and deposits behind. Run it the recommended time then let it sit a day. Do this for a few days to flush it out. Then after changing the oil add some Marvel Mystery Oil with your new oil. Should be as good as new inside. if you plan on tearing it down. Then get your pressure back then go for it.

 

[DanNagy]

I never heard about adding Marvel Mystery Oil. What does that do for the engine? How much is "some"?

I inadvertantly added some transmission fluid to my oil at my parents house, and freaked out aboutt it. But the neighbor next door said he always adds transmission fluid to his oil to make his engine run clean. Well, I flushed that all out anyway, but wonder if there is an added benefit as he suggested?

 

[Got_All_4]

Marvel mystery Oil (MMO) helps internal oil deposits from building up inside your engine. Also raises the oil brake down temperature. It's a great top end lubricant if you add some to your gas too. It's the best assembly lube for your engine rebuild. It's benefits go on and on. I travel about 2,600 business miles per month and have used it in my 1987 740 Turbo charged Volvo. There are 350,000 miles on it and still has the original turbo in it. I've been called a flat out liar that it's not possible to have a turbo last that long. I do change my oil between 3 to 4k. I build oil pressure after changing it and befor starting the engine. The only thing else I do is add MMO.

Follow directions for amount. Tyranny fluid helps thin oil and has lots of corrosion protection. You wouldn't add a lot. Probably the same as MMO. MMO looks like transmission fluid too.

I had a Ford bronco II that had a recurring problem of the rocker shaft plunging up with sludge and wearing out rocker arms. (at that time I only lived 2 miles from work). From a old time mechanic and now service manager of a Oldsmoble dealership told me many stories about how they used it to unplug hydraulic lifters. So I used it in my Bronco and never had a problem since. Had it 12 years 180k on it.

Great stuff!

 

[aaronclark]

Well here is the deal on the oil pressure.......

I spun the oil pump with a drill and ... oil pressure...so then i thought must be i have it fixed so i put things back together and watched.. no oil pressure.

If you read my first post there was a line about remedying the drive shaft for the oil pump:

... so pull the distributor and check the drive gear/shaft for the oil pump..... hey, no woodruf key .... the shaft isn't turning. So remedy that and assume all is good.

Well by "remedying" the drive shaft for the oil pump I pulled the one out of another engine i have, it was easy since i was already using the dizzy from there, but it turns out after much confusion, that the roll pin just above the gear, the one that essentially sets the length of the shaft, was broken and the slotted shaft had pushed up through the gear part almost half an inch making the whole thing too short catch the oil pump!! Which explains why i had oil pressure with the drill but then put the dizzy back in and had none. It was hard to tell too since it seemed to fit together so snuggly and nicely.

It seems obvious now but if you aren't too experienced with these (guilty), when this happens it appears that the pin that is broken is actually going through the shaft and it all looks good. But the slotted shaft is supposed to rest up against the pin and this keeps the assembly the right length.

So now i need to get a roll pin and hope that i haven't done too much damage too the engine. Thanks everyone for your help with this, you are all great.

Aaron

 

[DanNagy]

Interesting about the MMO. Can you use this if you are using synthetic oil as well? I have a can on the shelf and will take a look at it to see what to add. I never read the back of the can. I learn something new everyday here.

 

[TR3driver]

Interesting about the MMO. Can you use this if you are using synthetic oil as well?

I tried MMO in a crankcase exactly once, in an elderly GM V6 that had been running on a steady diet of full synthetic. Crankshaft snapped 3 weeks later, just rolling down the freeway. Could be no relationship, but I won't be repeating the experiment. YMMV

 

[DanNagy]

Yikes!

 

[vettedog72]

Dan
If your crank breaks it will be in spite of using MMO, not because of it. It is very useful with hydraulic lifters (I think all the Triumphs are solid lifters) because it has a lot of cleaning action but so does ATF and diesel engine oil.

 

[TR3driver]

Yeah, that engine only went a quarter million miles without ever having MMO (or diesel fuel or ATF) in the crankcase; or having any problems at all with the lifters. Then the crank snapped "in spite" of the MMO.

Isn't it amazing how we assume that the professionals who make a career out of designing motor oil additive packages do such a poor job that we can 'improve' their work by throwing in almost anything ? Obviously it's a popular belief, companies like STP and Slick 50 have survived many years (and many denouncements by the FTC) and are still getting rich on snake oil.

Hey buddy, wanna buy a bridge ?

 

[vettedog72]

I have not tried diesel fuel in the crank case but kerosene works very well at cleaning sludge; I don't recommend operating either in the crankcase. I agree, marketing is the essence of snake oil.