Seating Rings with Rust?

[RAC68]

Hi All,

Yesterday, I discussed engine brake-in and ring seating with a good friend who has a number of Healeys and Jaguars and a bit of experience rebuilding engines. During the discussion, he brought up that, back in the day, Ferrari would fill the cylinders with water to create rust as part of their brake-in process. After some level of rust developed, they would crank the engine using the rust to seat the rings. Although I am skeptical that this really was Ferrari’s process, there seems to be some logic in the fact that rust could act as a honing media when the engine is cranked.

Has anyone heard of this process?

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[HealeyRick]

Not heard of the rust process, but have heard of old timers introducing Bon Ami cleanser through the carb in order to seat rings. here's a thread on that: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=592765 (I just noticed there's a mention of the rust method in that thread) Don't think I'd want to try either on my freshly rebuilt motor.

 

[Johnny]

I wouldn't condone any of those methods, however, I had an uncle that was a "Chevy" mechanic for over 30 years and he told me that when doing a tuneup he would first remove the air cleaner and with the engine running at slightly above normal idle, slowly pour hot water into the air cleaner until the engine died. He claims this process helps to de-coke the cylinders. I've tried it numerous times on engines and I have to admit the engine did seem to run smoother.

 

[RAC68]

Johnny, the introduction of a stream of water through the carburetor is something I did many years ago. The water was meant to shock carbon from the cylinders and seemed work well.

Rick, thanks for the link. I guess years ago, since tolerances were not as tight as today’s cars, either the Bon Ami cleanser or rust would accelerate the ring seating process. I wonder how they would clean out the cylinders when seating was considered completed?

Although I don’t recommend either ring honing process, I have noted a number of posts indicating smoking problems on rebuilt engines. Since insufficient ring seating seems to be the common cause, I was wondering what process could be used to reseat the rings after some period of operation.

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[EV2239]

When fitting new rings, it's wise to put them in the bores and make sure they contact all the way round. If you can see a gap between ring and bore, it probably won't bed in.

Normally if the rings rust for any reason they stick to the bores and the engine will lock solid. It can take all heck to free the pistons when this happens. Last time I dealt with it was on a BMW R/90S bike. I had to undo the big end take the barrel off with the piston in it and press it out. It took a few tons and cost a new piston.

 

[Richard Dickinson]

Some of this stuff sounds like it falls in the urban myth category. During a rebuild a good machine shop would hone the cylinders leaving a crisscross pattern and if the rings are gaped properly they should wear in within a few hundred miles.

 

[TimK]

This takes me back to when a shop put in new pistons and rings in my MGB. When I started it up it smoked like crazy. Somehow I knew to remove the head and use a hone (with an electric drill) to break the glaze that had formed and then all was well.

 

[RAC68]

Although I didn’t want to come to a hasty conclusions, I tend to agree with Rich and see the use of Rust to seat rings as Urban Legend.

Resetting rings in a rebuilt engine after some time of use is probably best done the way Tim describes. However, Ken Russell presented this run-in process on another forum that seems interesting and potential. Another forum participant, suffering from a smoking rebuilt engine, is in the process of trying Ken’s procedure and will respond once completed.

“Get the car fully warmed up and out on a road that is not traveled too heavily and is more or less, straight with out hills. Get the car up to speed in third gear, without running the RPM up too high (shift points below 2000 RPM). As soon as you get her in third, floor it -- right flat to the floorboards. Let her surge up through the RPM till you get about 4500 RPM and then take your foot right off the pedal and allow her to slow down to the 2000 rpm starting point. Repeat. Do this 4 or 5 times and then take the car home and let her cool off. This procedure will very often seat the rings and your oil usage will pass” (Ken Russell).

Thoughts?

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[HealeyRick]

Although I didn’t want to come to a hasty conclusions, I tend to agree with Rich and see the use of Rust to seat rings as Urban Legend.


Ray (64BJ8P1)

If the Ferraris were anything like the FIATS I owned, I wouldn't be surprised they were rusting inside the engine ... they rusted everywhere else.

 

[drambuie]

I would hope that during the original manufacture or rebuild process a dial bore gauge would be used to check the bores for any egg shape or taper and proper I.D. size. once the bores are deemed round and the honing is finished in each cylinder and rings properly spaced and fitted, then there should be no problem with a reasonable break in period! There is a right and wrong way of doing things! Michael, IL.

 

[EV2239]

Some of this stuff sounds like it falls in the urban myth category. During a rebuild a good machine shop would hone the cylinders leaving a crisscross pattern and if the rings are gaped properly they should wear in within a few hundred miles.

Spot on!

 

[RAC68]

I think we all agree and no need to state that properly machined and installed pistons and rings, followed by a conscientious brake-in, would yield a smokeless operating engine. However, for those who have a smoking rebuild (and there seems to be a number from just the comments I’ve read on this forum) other then pulling the pistons and re-honing and seating, is there any way to eliminate the smoke by reseating the rings through a less intervening re-brake-in?

Although rust or Bon Ami seem to be just a joke, what are your thoughts on Ken Russell’s procedure (In my last post) and do you have an alternative approach?

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

I think we all agree and no need to state that properly machined and installed pistons and rings, followed by a conscientious brake-in, would yield a smokeless operating engine. However, for those who have a smoking rebuild (and there seems to be a number from just the comments I’ve read on this forum) other then pulling the pistons and re-honing and seating, is there any way to eliminate the smoke by reseating the rings through a less intervening re-brake-in?

Although rust or Bon Ami seem to be just a joke, what are your thoughts on Ken Russell’s procedure (In my last post) and do you have an alternative approach?

Ray (64BJ8P1)

Maybe it's the oil used in the break-in process?
I used 30 wt. non-detergent for all the Healey engines I rebuilt(about 2 dozen), since 1973.

To break-in the engine/rings, I took the car out on the road and accellerated from 20 mph to 55 mph 10 times in high gear. After the 3rd accelleration the oil smoke was greatly reduced and some times completely gone. I kept the break-in oil until the engine had 500 miles on it.

I have purchased Joe Gibbs 30 wt. non-detergent oil for my new engine which will be broken-in on a Test Stand our local club has made especially for doing a break-in.

It's important to make the rings "heat up" to get them to seal. I don't know anything about all of the "other stuff" posted on this post, but only what worked(for me). I would think that trying to flush out an engine of a chemical such as Bon-Ami might defeat the purpose with the engine having so many nooks and crannies. Could you ever get all of that stuff "out"?

 

[EV2239]

I agree Patrick, normally there are no issues bedding rings in, I've even had no trouble when honing hasn't been possible. In fact I've just replaced a crank and the rings in my TR3A. It was burning 250mpp, I just stuck new rings in and it's done nearly a thousand now with no oil used.

Therefore, if engines are smoking badly, it may be shiny bores preventing rings bedding in, it's not unheard of, but I'm inclined to think there's something wrong such as ther being a gap between ring and bore, which I've seen a few times. I suspect a strip down will be the only way to fix it.

 

[Randy Forbes]

A few comments, some just off the wall, and some in response to posts here...

First off, I've read nearly everything published about Ferrari, the man, the factory and the cars, the racing team & mechanics. Nobody ever mentioned this technique, either in an official or unofficial manner.

I've been around people working on cars since my pre-teen years, and I've never heard anyone say they put Bon Ami in an engine; maybe to scrub some external parts, way before we had access to such modern solvents.

The water trickled into the intake I have heard of, and seen demonstrated, but no personal experience. In "the old days" it was quite common to "de-coke/de-carbon" an engine, so it might've been a stop-gap process, perhaps meant to be done inbetween head removal jobs (and "flatheads" were a lot less involved to remove).

When I started building engines, and we still had cardboard quart oil cans, I used to let the assembled pistons "soak" overnight with the rings submerged in oil. I may have even used white lithium grease on the bores.

Nowadays, the ring manufacturers instruct us to assemble the rings dry. I've used Total Seal rings almost exclusively for the past twenty-five (>25) years, and more recently, been using a product they offer, which is almost solvent-like and a treatment on the rings as the engine is assembled (of, I have pictures of this, and maybe I search for them later__too much to do right now...). They also offer a polymer treatment, perhaps a graphite compound, to aid with cylinder wear and ring-seating.

Yes, nowadays, there's a product for anything that ails ya!

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

A few comments, some just off the wall, and some in response to posts here...

First off, I've read nearly everything published about Ferrari, the man, the factory and the cars, the racing team & mechanics. Nobody ever mentioned this technique, either in an official or unofficial manner.

I've been around people working on cars since my pre-teen years, and I've never heard anyone say they put Bon Ami in an engine; maybe to scrub some external parts, way before we had access to such modern solvents.

The water trickled into the intake I have heard of, and seen demonstrated, but no personal experience. In "the old days" it was quite common to "de-coke/de-carbon" an engine, so it might've been a stop-gap process, perhaps meant to be done inbetween head removal jobs (and "flatheads" were a lot less involved to remove).

When I started building engines, and we still had cardboard quart oil cans, I used to let the assembled pistons "soak" overnight with the rings submerged in oil. I may have even used white lithium grease on the bores.

Nowadays, the ring manufacturers instruct us to assemble the rings dry. I've used Total Seal rings almost exclusively for the past twenty-five (>25) years, and more recently, been using a product they offer, which is almost solvent-like and a treatment on the rings as the engine is assembled (of, I have pictures of this, and maybe I search for them later__too much to do right now...). They also offer a polymer treatment, perhaps a graphite compound, to aid with cylinder wear and ring-seating.

Yes, nowadays, there's a product for anything that ails ya!

While watching the Military Channel a few days ago about the P47 Thunderbolt they talked about the newer version and it had water injection to give it a boost when needed but I don't believe they used it unless they absolutely had to such as a ME-109 on their tail.

 

[Randy Forbes]

On cue...

 

[Randy Forbes]

You know, I did hear one story, and by God, it was by the original owner of a BJ8, so it must be true...

His recolection was that Duesenberg used to set the freshly machined cylinder blocks outside (unassembled) for *a period of time* for them to "season"

I presumed him to mean the molecular grain structure to (for lack of a proper term) <span style="font-style: italic">relax.</span>

Maybe that's how rumors get started...

 

[Bob_Spidell]

FWIW, the break-in procedure for aircraft piston engines--with large clearances and tolerances--is very specific and almost universally mandated by both Lycoming and Continental and most rebuilders. Since you can set mixture on most engines, the procedure is to keep mixture at full rich--which will wash almost all oil off the cylinder walls--and run at full power at low altitude for the first 50 hours or so. This keeps the BMEP as high as possible, and keeps the rings firmly pressed against the cylinder walls. And, yes, non-detergent 'mineral' oil is usually mandated as well. Failure to follow the procedures will usually void the warranty on the engine.

Have heard of Bon-Ami being used to try to break the glaze on cylinders that weren't broken-in properly, but it's obviously a last resort.

 

[Frameman]

Did you use chrome or cast rings? Chrome rings take forever to seat in. Cast rings with a decent cross hatching will seat in fine.I have tried the Bon Ami trick when I was younger, it worked but now that I am older and a little wiser I would not do it again. I think I was just lucky. I have been doing engines since the whole oil can was tin :laugh:
Marty