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TR2/3/3A Rack and Pinion for a TR3

Jerry

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I saw another post that bought a front end kit for a TR3 from Roadster Factory. I assume that was replacement of orginal parts. I have already done that and the TR3A steers pretty tough for my wife and daughter. I was wondering if anyone had put on a rack and pinion kit for a TR3 and if so where did you buy it?

Jerry
 

Mickey Richaud

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Hi, Jerry -

Russ Austin, one of the members here, has one, I believe. He checks in pretty regularly, so stand by...

Mickey
 

martx-5

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I installed one of these kits from British Auto Restorations, but since I'm in the middle of the TR3 restoration, I won't know how good it is until I get this thing up and running. I've heard nothing but good things about it, and I have to admit, that the heavy steering was one of the weak points in the TR3. I was going to wait until after the resto was done, but having the body off the car pushed me into doing it now. I think I spent about an hour on the job in between a couple of Anchor Steam Beers. You can't run the original fan, as the rack intrudes into the space normally occupied by the fan. The kit has an electric fan and some hardware to use in place of the fan extension. Since I was going to go electric anyway, that really sealed the deal for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thirsty.gif
 

Alan_Myers

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Hi Jerry,

There are a number of sources for R&P kits to install in TR3. There are several things to consider.

Before anything else (except checking tire pressure) I'd suggest you have the alignment checked. They might spot some problems that are causing heavier-than-usual steering. One cause might be binding in the trunnion. This could be due to a lack of lubrication (it's not easy to get grease in there - many use 90W gear oil instead, but that means using a special type of gun) and/or incorrect caster (possibly due to bumping a curb) or other things that cause binding in the steering (which can lead to damage).

A TR3's steering does require more effort than a modern car, especially at low speeds, but without actually test driving your car, it's hard to say if it's just normal or harder than normal. You'll have to be the judge of that and an alignment shop might be able to help.

Previous post at the link Geo provided mentions RevingtonTR's kit, which is probably the best method overall, but means permanent modifications to car's the frame. Still, this would be the most secure way to install a conversion like this.

The other kit from Bristish Auto Restorations sounds the same as TR Bitz in England, and probably others, a bolt-in that makes possible returning the car to stock, should that ever be necessary. (Also hang onto steering column parts that need replaced to work with R&P, too).

I've not installed any of these, but think most use a TR7 R&P unit, adapted for use (TR4-6 R&P are all too wide). I'm pretty sure installing thses will all also require modification of the steering column, possibly the switches and horn wiring as well.

When installing one of these kits, I'm sure they are pretty strict as to locating the rack. This is important because positioning it a little too high or low, forward or backward can begin to introduce some poor steering characteristics, such as bump steer. However, I would be confident kits offered by the more knowledgeable vendors address this and give good instructions how to set it up. Still, it might be something to ask the seller about, before buying.

Some say converting to R&P in a TR3 makes the car's steering a little over-sensitive, but it is something that can quickly be gotten used to. One reason for this is that TR3 have 0 degree castor in the front suspension. Shortly after it's introduction with R&P, TR4 front suspension geometry was changed to 3 degrees castor. This helps the front wheels self-center and reduces steering sensitivity to small bumps, ridges and unevenness in the road.

So, a possible additional enhancement may be to change to later TR4 (after approx. CT6400) front suspension parts. That would involve changing the vertical links/trunnions, upper and lower a-arms, and the ball joints. The upper fulcrum (upper/inner a-arm pivot) might need to be reversed to work right.

Note: All TR4 use the same as TR3's fixed inner/lower attachment for a-arms. TR4A and later cars don't, because it's adjustable, but isn't as strong as the earlier setup. The TR4A outer/lower a-arm setup might be better, though and uses a different vertical link/trunnion.

In fact, the next consideration is camber, which is non-adjustable from the factory on TR3/4. There are adjustable upper fulcrums available from Revington TR. The original camber was set at +2 to +3 degrees, good for the bias ply tires of the day. However, nearly all tires today are radials and they work better with 0 to -1 degree camber. Using steel-belted radial tires with the old style camber setup is another reason your steering feels heavy.

With these steering geometry modifications, to accomodate modern tires, it is possible the TR3 steering box will be more acceptable. However, you noted a lot of play due to wear in the mechanism, that needs to be addressed. One solution is a top cover with a spring built-in, that keeps the peg in the worm better, reduces play. These specially modified top covers are available from Revington and others, and look nearly stock.

BTW, Roger William's "How to Improve Triumph TR2 through TR4A" devotes part of a chapter and a few illustrations to installing R&P on the earlier cars. Being British, most of the sources Roger recommends are located in England, though.

Cheers!
 
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Jerry

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The other thread mentions a few suppliers but I could not find the part listed for TR3s. I did find a kit for MGs. I think my steering is no different than other TR3s that I have been around. My wife and daughter drive this car most often and it requires some muscle to steer if it is not moving. The steering rack was rebuilt about 7000 miles ago. The steering box was rebuilt by Triumphs Only.
 

Russ Austin

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The different is really almost too hard to believe, turn a complete circle with one finger. As you can tell I am very happy with the new rack system.

There is some good info from Neil Revington from Revington TR in Somerset England. The unit he offers you weld in place, he gives some interesting reasons on why the Rack and Pinion system is better. The web address for Revington TR is https://www.revingtontr.com/

I got mine from Ted Smith of British Auto Restorations in Roanoke, VA. There is no web site for them, his phone number is 540 989-5121 the rack he offers is bolt in and I believe about $1100.

There is one other place that has Rack and Pinion for TR3's and it is Protek Engineering Unit 13 Bushells Business Estate, Hithercroft Road, Wallingford, Oxfordshire, OX10. Tel: 01491-832372

Good Luck and yes Mickey I was "lurking" How you doing my Friend Hope the TR8 is getting in shape!
 

Camping57

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Jerry,
If you are having heavy steering when stationary, that is going to be hard to eliminate unless you go to power steering. Even eith the original TR3 steering box I have pretty reasonable steering effort as long as I am moving at least slightly. When statioary you are trying to overcome all of the static friction of the tire contact patch and it will be a bear to turn. But if you just get the car creeping a little bit the steering lightens up a lot.

The best description of TR3 steering came from a freind who is a pilot. He likened it to flying: don't try to correct for every little gust of wind, just give it's head and correct for major course corrections. That has always worked well for me. I always remember that I am driving a 50 year old car so it shouldn't feel like a new car; that's why I like it. If I want modern steering I'll pull out the Miata.


Dick
 

Alan_Myers

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Hi again Jerry,

[ QUOTE ]
The other thread mentions a few suppliers but I could not find the part listed for TR3s.

[/ QUOTE ]

See https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/MossUK/ProductList.aspx?SubSubCategoryID=TR2_UKTRI-172 for a picture and info about the bolt-in conversion kit. An earlier response directs you to Revington's site for info on the weld-in conversion kit.

Likely the bolt-in kit shown at Moss Europe is same as or nearly the same as the one sold by BAR in the U.S., although it sounds like BAR also include an electric fan conversion in their kit. Some of the other U.S. vendors may also supply the same kit. Many of the U.S. vendors simply source the parts from the U.K. Also, this is likely the same/similar to the unit sold by TR Bitz in England.

You can certainly order direct from the U.K., but might find shipping costs a little high and you will pay more import duty than a vendor would, assuming they are buying at a wholesale price.

Revington TR and, I think, Racetorations are two sources of weld-in rack conversion kits, if that's what you would prefer. I understand this type kit *can* be installed without removing the body from the frame, although I would guess doing so would make it easier. Again, the weld-in installation is undoubtedly the more secure way to go, but would be more difficult to convert back to original configuration in the future.

Ken Gillanders at British Frame and Engine (www.britishframeandengine.com imports a variety of parts from Darryl Uprichard at Racetorations, and might be able to help you get one of those kits, if you are interested. Ken also sources some things from TriumphTune and Moss Europe, the seller of the kit shown at the link above.

I've purchased several things from Neil Revington directly, am not aware of any U.S. vendor working with him (but, again, Ken Gillanders knows and might also import parts from Neil).

www.rimmerbros.com in England might also offer either the bolt-in or weld-in kit. I didn't see any info about it on their website. Their TR2/3/3A parts catalog is a downloadable pdf, if you want to take a look.

Chris Connolly at Cambridge Motorsport in England is another possible source. But a quick look at https://shop.cambridgemotorsport.com doesn't show anything. Might be worth emailing.

Back here in the U.S., neither The Roadster Factory (www.the-roadster-factory.com) or British Parts Northwest (www.bpnorthwest.com) list a steering conversion kit, but might be worth sending an email. They can probably get one.

There might be more info out on the Internet... could be worth Googling. I just got 361 results with: TR3 steering rack pinion "conversion kit". (One of the first was Ted at BAR's ad in Hemmings online classifieds.)

[ QUOTE ]
The steering box was rebuilt by Triumphs Only.

[/ QUOTE ] Finally, have asked Wayne about it?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
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Jerry

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I don't find the car that hard to steer, but my wife and daughter do. I have an Austin Healey also, that feels like power steering compared to the Triumph TR3A. How long did it take you to install the bolt in kit?
 

martx-5

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I have the body body off, so it only took less then an hour to actually bolt on the rack. The electric fan will have to go on when the radiator eventually goes in. Anyway, the front apron has to be removed to do this job. How fast that comes on and off will determine how quickly the job goes. I'd set aside a weekend at least.
 

Russ Austin

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Jerry I havee attached a PDF for the installation of the R&P from Ted Smith.

Thanks
 

Russ Austin

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Sorry it was to large! I would be happy to send it to your email address.

Thanks
 

TR3Mod

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Hi Russ

TR3Mod here. I converted to rack & pinion steering 30 years ago on my first TR3, which I still own. I used a TR4 rack and mounted it on a plate which I attached to the original steering box/ idler brackets on the frame. The whole thing bolts in with no mods of any kind to the frame. I wnated to be able to put it back stock with no issues latter if need be. I simply cut the extra length from the steering rod ends and threaded them down further. I was originally concerned about potential bump steer with the shorter arms, but it has not been a problem- on the street or on the race-track. I ran the TR4 steering rod right up to the steering wheel. I used a TR6 wheel because it seemed to make sense with the easier turning effort provided by the rack and pinion. The cool tricj I did was to graft the TR3 horn and signal center unit to the TR6 steering wheel. It looks great, and keeps that vintage flavour.

TR3Mod
 

bluemiata90

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Does anyone have a true idea of how much the bolt on conversion from Moss/UK would cost total with shipping to the U.S.. On the website site, there seemed to be 2 different prices one converting to around 600.00 USD and another converting to around 950.00 USD. without shipping. Has anyone bought one of these and had it shipped to the States. I'm seriously thinking of adding this upgrade.
 
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Jerry

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Russ,

you may have brought up a question that I did not think about. Does the wire for the turn signals and horn still work?

Jerry
 

Alan_Myers

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[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have a true idea of how much the bolt on conversion from Moss/UK would cost total with shipping to the U.S.. On the website site, there seemed to be 2 different prices one converting to around 600.00 USD and another converting to around 950.00 USD. without shipping. Has anyone bought one of these and had it shipped to the States. I'm seriously thinking of adding this upgrade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

Probably the difference between those two kits is one is for the one-piece steering column and the cheaper is for the two-piece column. I believe a one-piece column needs to first be converted to a two-piece, to use the conversion kit, and would require more parts be supplied in the kit. So, the cost will depend upon which you need for your particular car.

Shipping from England is a bit steep. I've not had one of these kits shipped, but had a 20 lb. box shipped that cost about $60 U.S. (and took 8-9 weeks to arrive, looked more like a soccer ball than a cardboard box by the time it finally arrived!). That was via Royal Post and was the best price we could find at the time. Things change and it might be worth checking with DHL, UPS, etc.

Don't forget import duties. Last I checked it was 10% for "vintage/antique/classic car parts", 30% for "car parts" coming from England (which is why as much as possible I buy modern Land Rover parts from Canada, rather than purchasing in the U.S. where the wholesaler/importer has paid that hefty duty and builds it into the price). Just be sure to ask the seller to declare the parts "vintage/antique/classic car parts"!

Prices you see quoted on British websites very often include VAT (Value Added Tax), which is substantial at 17.5%. You would not need to pay that, so the price might be lower in that respect, than what you see listed. However, Moss/UK also lists prices in U.S. $, which I believe is what you were citing. Those would likely not have VAT included.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

Russ Austin

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Jerry; Both will need to be rerouted, the turn signals are on the dash to the of the steering wheel. I have a Moto Lita wheel and through the hub I ran coiled wire (like you might see on a race car)for the horn, so it is on the wheel.

Good Luck!
 

Alan_Myers

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[ QUOTE ]
Has anybody checked into using a Spitfire or GT6 rack? If the TR4 & 6 rack is too wide maybe this would help.

[/ QUOTE ]

A TR7 rack is used in the kits, I believe. That's probably more easily obtained and less costly than these other options. There were nearly as many TR7 sold as all other TRs combined, so there probably are lots of parts cars around providing a good source of cores for kits, or if you wanted to try to put something together on your own or could find a less expensive kit where you supply your own rack.

Although someone said they successfully used a TR4 or 4A rack (which are not interchangeable either, incidentally), I think the surest route is a proven kit with the TR7 rack.

In a previous discussion, it was also suggested a Pinto/Mustang rack might work. I honestly don't know. But, some caution about heading out into unexplored territory would apply.

Any changes to a steering mechanism can result in unforeseen quirks. It could get pricey, trying different things until you find the right combination, and could possibly even be dangerous to experiment.

Because of this, I personally think a tried-and-true kit would be the safest and possibly the least expensive way to go.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
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