Propane conversion

[ichthos]

Hello,

I have been toying with the idea of converting one of may cars to propane for a number of reasons. I really don't know much about it. Of course when you go to websites with people who sell this service or conversion, a very rosy picture is painted. If it works so well, why haven't more people done it?Has anyone ever done this to a TR6? If it is even possible, what are some of the pros and cons? Does anyone know who does this sort of thing in WA state? Any input would greatly be appreciated.

Kevin

 

[billspit]

For years the only way to get a new Morgan was to get one that was propane powered. All it takes is the proper carburetor and the tank. Years ago I used to see dual fuel trucks, propane and gasoline. They were mostly used by farmers during one of the oil embargos. The problem with propane is the tank takes up a bit of space and propane isn't readily available. A lot of people don't want a pressurized "bomb" in their car. I had a friend that works for an LP gas company. They fuel their trucks with propane and the engines last for a long time.

 

[TR3driver]

If it works so well, why haven't more people done it?

I looked at it, long ago. My reasons for not doing it include :

1) Cost. No way would the conversion pay for itself in any reasonable length of time.

2) Power. Although it's possible to keep (or even increase) power running on propane; just bolting on a conversion loses power. The "dual fuel" conversions appear to be especially poor.

3) Smog check. At least in CA, propane powered vehicles still require semiannual smog check (if they would on gasoline). But most ordinary smog check stations refuse to do them, and finding a place that does is a hassle. Finding someone to repair it if it flunks is tough too.

4) Range. Propane tanks can only be filled about 2/3 full, and must have much heavier walls than gasoline tanks. Combine that with less energy per gallon, and the result is a significant reduction in how far you can drive before having to hunt for a filling station that does propane. Unless you want to give up the trunk, of course

5) Fuel availability. Note that you are NOT allowed to run your vehicle on BBQ propane; it's a violation of federal laws akin to moonshining. Everywhere I've checked, only maybe 1 in 10 gas stations sells propane that is suitably taxed for use on the road. (Some of them only sell untaxed propane, meaning they should refuse to fill your vehicle tank.) Which can be a real problem if there are only 10 gas stations in a 100 mile radius and you don't know which one it is.

6) And in spite of the rosy picture painted by the folks who want to sell it, buying propane is a hassle compared to gasoline. There's no such thing as "self service" or "pay at the pump" or "after hours service". Which means you have to park, go find an attendant, have him go find the guy that is trained to pump propane (who sometimes cannot be found, "Sorry, come back later"), then wait for him to finish whatever he was doing before, fire up the pump, inspect your tank, thread on the filler, etc. all before a single drop goes in your car. Perhaps they've improved the process, but it used to be that propane vapor was vented to the atmosphere the whole time fuel was flowing in ... the attendant watches for the vapor to turn to liquid to show when the tank is full. Then after he disconnects his equipment, he is supposed to bleed off any excess liquid. No matter how clean my tailpipe is, that amount of propane dumped into the air cannot be good for pollution.

And I've never had a regular gasoline station ask to see my inspection report

 

[beaulieu]

I did not know about the California smog checks which would stop some of the conversion plans I have seen people talk about ,

Propane is great for a fleet that returns to the yard every night after deliveries etc ,

In Holland they have LPG , which is not exacttly Propane but close (I filled my USA spec VW camper propane stove up with LPG in Holland) anyway my friend had a duel system LPG-Petrol in a full size Chevy conversion van , It ran OK, but was pretty slow for a V8 , lost 20-30% of the power , plus you use more LPG per mile....

But in Holland LPG was less than half the cost of Petrol so it wolked out ,
I do not think it would work out here as the cost is too close.....

Anyone see a natural gas converstion from your house natural gas ?

Beaulieu

 

[foxtrapper]

Refueling is what stopped me with my thoughts of a converation, and I already had the main tank and some of the equipment. Really, all I needed was a carburetor and a regulator. I have one refueling station within several hundred miles of me. While it was in my town, refueling killed the notion of going on any real drives with the car.

 

[davidk]

Check out www.myphill.com. I don't know if it's available yet in the U.S., but it looks like a good way to use compressed natural gas. It would be good for someone who only drives 50 miles or so a day. After that, it's back to gasoline.

 

[TR3driver]

Anyone see a natural gas converstion from your house natural gas ?

Even more impractical, IMO. What's delivered to your house is very low pressure, while to get any range at all, you need very high pressure for your vehicle tank, several thousand psi. We're talking a compressor that costs more than the car does ...

 

[TR3driver]

Check out www.myphill.com.

Hey, not bad ! Lessee, that 50 miles would cost you about $2.50 for the gas (assuming you are paying $1.19/therm, the projected average for this winter), plus about $.50 for the electricity to run the unit (at $.15/kWh which is what I pay). And you'd get about 75000 miles out of the unit before it wore out.
So if you figure $4/gallon for gas and use their 30 mpg figure, you'd break even in 75000 miles if the unit (and the conversion for your car, installation, 220v service, gas lines, etc.) only cost $5500.

 

[tomshobby]

I have been around a lot of propane powered engines over the years. Cars, trucks, fork lifts, engine powered welders, end loaders, etc. They made Lucas look pretty reliable. Always someone walking about with a propane cylinder on their shoulder because they ran out somewhere. Carburetors frozen up in humid weather, gas lines freezing up in cold weather.
But I do think it would be a great fuel for many to use so I can get gasoline for a longer time.

 

[Tomster]

Lots of fleet and delivery vehicles are propane and Natural gas powered up here in Oil country. Great for fleet but a real poor choice for a sports car

 

[Dale]

I guess I'll jump in with my tuppence, though it looks like it's been well covered and I really can't add much. My experience with propane as an automotive fuel is from the late 70's when we were running a Dodge pick up on it. The "kit" had been given to us, so that cost was not a consideration. The benifit was negligible as the cost of propane generally follows the cost of gasoline. It must be quite a bit cheaper to offset the reduced mileage and power that one gets. I work on natural gas engines for a living and they, like propane powered ones, are very prone to valve problems. I would be very careful in running a dry fuel in an engine designed for leaded fuel as the valve seats tend to be softer and the valves would recede very quickly. Even with very hard valve seats and understressed engines, valve problems are something we live with continually on the engines I deal with daily. So, unless you can "bootleg" the propane and avoid the taxes it's tough to make it pay and even living within a few miles of an outlet it's not like running out to the 7-11 and topping up at 11:30 PM. Gasoline is still the best motor fuel and that's not likely to change, as it's portability, power to volume, etc. etc. are well proven. Thanks for your time. Dale

 

[frankenstang57]

I drove a bus converted to propane for a few years. It had a Ford 460 in it. It was terrible! No power and it got about 4mpg. The diesels of the same size got around 11mpg loaded and would run away from the gassers. Complete waste of time and money IMHO...

 

[hondo402000]

just another reason why we need to DRILL for oil here and keep the price of gas down...

Just my opinion

HOndo