5 speed conversion question

[roscoe]

So, I'm in the middle of doing my 5 speed conversion on my BN 2 and although Pete Delaney has been helpful and is sending me a back plate for the engine because the bell housing won't mate up properly, I still have a question. Unfortunately, I didn't check this before I reinstalled my lightened flywheel and upgraded clutch assembly. Not too much to undo that but I hate going backwards on these things.

My car had the 4 speed with overdrive and the normal BN2 side shift gearbox. When I went to mate the new kit bell housing, the bolts did not line up. I know those folks with BN1 gearboxes need to install a new back plate, but normally the kit for the BN2 and later models do not get that per the kit parts. My question is, is the bolt pattern on the stock BN1 the same as the stock BN2 with the side shift 4 speed? I would have assumed that the 4 speed side shift bell housing on the BN 2 matched the 100/6 and all the later models with center shift. Has anyone put a Smitty/Delaney kit in a BN 2? Also, thanks to Dave Deamer who has been kind to share his process with his BN1. It should have perked me when he said he needed a different back plate but the kit parts list says it isn't part of the BN2 kit, just the BN1. No mistake, Pete Delaney is paying attention and we'll figure it out. Thanks.

 

[ahealey1004]

hi Jon- hope you're well. As I've been gathering parts for the 100 engine I bought from you (which is still at the machinist!), I've been exploring 5-speed options and had always assumed the Smitty/Delaney kit had a different cast bell housing to adapt to the 100 engine, but it sounds like that's not the case, rather the engine backing plate has to do that job. I was also curious if all side-shift transmissions shared the same bolt-pattern, but I had read in one of my many Healey books that you can bolt a bn4 or bt7 side shift transmission to the bn2 backing plate, but only 6 out of 9 holes line up. I've also read you have to shorten the input shaft by 1/2" to make this fit.
So out of curiosity I took my bn2 transmission and attempted to mate a 6-cylinder backing plate to it, and indeed only 6 of the 9 bolt holes lined up (see picture).
I know Denis Welch offers alloy backing plates that convert a later sideshift trans to a 100 engine https://www.bighealey.co.uk/100-alu...-bellhousing-ceng402a&search=100 engine plate

Thanks for sharing and keep us posted so when guys like me do this swap, you've documented all the pitfalls!
thanks Jon.

 

[ahealey1004]

hi Jon- hope you're well. As I've been gathering parts for the 100 engine I bought from you (which is still at the machinist!), I've been exploring 5-speed options and had always assumed the Smitty/Delaney kit had a different cast bell housing to adapt to the 100 engine, but it sounds like that's not the case, rather the engine backing plate has to do that job. I was also curious if all side-shift transmissions shared the same bolt-pattern, but I had read in one of my many Healey books that you can bolt a bn4 or bt7 side shift transmission to the bn2 backing plate, but only 6 out of 9 holes line up. I've also read you have to shorten the input shaft by 1/2" to make this fit.
So out of curiosity I took my bn2 transmission and attempted to mate a 6-cylinder backing plate to it, and indeed only 6 of the 9 bolt holes lined up (see picture).
I know Denis Welch offers alloy backing plates that convert a later sideshift trans to a 100 engine https://www.bighealey.co.uk/100-alu...-bellhousing-ceng402a&search=100 engine plate

Thanks for sharing and keep us posted so when guys like me do this swap, you've documented all the pitfalls!
Austin
View attachment 65624

 

[roscoe]

Hi Austin,
Thanks for fiddling around with this. It had not occured to me that there would be more than one bell housing for the 4 speed side shift gearbox ( I think that is what you implied). Pete is sending me the back plate he normally sends out with the kit for a BN1. He does indeed put a new bellhousing in every kit because of course, the W58 transmission has a different bolt pattern on the back end of the bell housing. As far as I know he has only one bell housing style that adapts to the Toyota gearbox. I can, with some jiggling and I would ream a couple of holes a bit if I had to do this, get 6 of the 9 bolts to line up on my original back plate and the kit bell housing. We'll see what the new back plate does ( delivery is this coming wed.).

I don't know about shortening the mainshaft pilot, if that is what you mean. I have not heard anything about that potential issue and it is not part of the Delaney instructions. If anyone else knows of this, please chime in.

I am assuming I will have to cut away some of the new back plate to give clearance for the crankshaft rear seal kit I've got installed but that is not a big deal.

I think there are still some mysteries concerning our cars. I learned to be patient around the time I retired.

For anyone reading this I should note that Pete Delaney has been responsive and helpful and as he said, "I'm taking notes".

 

[roscoe]

Re: 5 speed conversion question, the long story

After being on a pretty steep part of the learning curve I have completed the installation of the Toyota W58 gearbox in my BN2. As advertised, it is essentially a bolt off /bolt on conversion...with a few qualifications. I did use metric, Whitworth and standard wrenches, grinder with a cutting wheel, both mig and oxy acetylene welding, floor jack, cherry picker engine hoist, tallest drive up ramps I have and jack stands. If I had it all to do over it would have taken about a quarter of the time it did, assuming I knew what I know now. For posterity and perhaps helping someone down the road I'll briefly review what I had trouble with. Please bear in mind I have a BN2 that had the side shift gearbox with overdrive. I should also point out that Pete Delaney who supplies the Smitty 5 speed kit under the name Healey 5 Speed was helpful all the way. He was usually available by phone and made right the two parts issues I had. The kit was complete with one exception ( see below) and that was quickly corrected by Pete. The kit instructions are OK but didn't really address the issues I had.

The first issue was fitting the master cylinder for the hydraulic clutch conversion. Everything except the original clutch pedal and jackshaft goes away. It seems that on the 4 cylinder engined cars there is not enough clearance between the edge of the oil pan and where the master cylinder bracket mounts. Once I spoke with David Deamer, who had just completed his BN1 5 speed swap in Southern CA, I realized this was a feature and the bracket just needed to be notched to correct this. Not a big deal at all, just not expected. Steve Gerow was also very helpful and my thanks to both of these people for sharing their experience.

Second, it appears that there are two different engine backplates and two different bell housings that were used for the side shift transmissions in the BN2 and the 100/6s that had them. The physical difference is the location of the bolt holes on the front of the bell housing. I do not know if my back plate and bellhousing were original, I suspect they were but one can never be sure. When I put the new gearbox into position to mount it I was freaked out that some of the bolt holes were not going to even be close to lining up. A quick call to Pete and the correct back plate was in the mail. Since I had already reinstalled my lightened flywheel and installed the upgraded BJ8 style diaphram clutch assembly on it it was a bit of a pain to undo all that to put in the new back plate. Problem solved.

Third, one of the parts in the kit is a small aluminum pilot bearing carrier that you press into the center hole of the flywheel which replaces the original first motion shaft pilot bearing/bushing which remains in place in the back end of the crankshaft. There are two styles of carrier that are available in this kit. One has a flange on it and the other doesn't. Due to some confusion I got the wrong one. I got the one with the flange, which is not for the 4 cylinder cars. The flange causes the pilot bearing to be positioned further aft, by the thickness of the flange which is about 0.14", which prevents the transmission from mating with the backplate by that amount, due to interference with the taper on the first motion pilot shaft. I broke the cardinal rule of not using the mounting bolts to draw the parts together but had the foresight to check that the engine was turning freely before I torqued them too much. Low and behold, the engine would not easily turn. I was loading the first motion shaft bearings, as soon as I eased off, everything freed up. A conversation with Pete Delaney when he asked if I had pressed the bearing carrier in flush and I mentioned the flange made him realize the wrong carrier was put in the kit. I could have just ground off the flange and pressed it flush but he sent me the part. Off came the clutch and flywheel again. Correct carrier installed and that all went together just as it should have.

Last but not least, as others have found, the geometry of the clutch jackshaft lever that come with the kit with the length of the forked shaft on the supplied master cylinder, didn't quite work out for me. Going to a hydraulic clutch it became apparent that I couldn't have the proper throw on the master cylinder without having an extreme angle on the master cylinder rod. I ended up removing the rod and shortening it ( that's where the welding and grinding came in). Although I didnt have to, I also made a jackshaft lever out of steel to replace the aluminum one in the kit. Nothing really wrong with the kit lever, I just wanted a bit more strength. As a final tweek to the clutch system I made a slightly longer link from the slave cylinder to the clutch fork. This was very easy as you just cut a piece of plain steel rod and smooth the ends to a rounded shape and pop it in place. You need to make sure that 1, you have enough throw to activate the clutch properly and 2, that the master cylinder does not have a preload on it that could prevent the orifice that unports and allows resevoir fluid to flow freely in both directions. There are clutch set ups in some cars where the throwout bearing spins all the time and some where they do not. The kit bearing is not supposed to spin when not engaged so the only force on the clutch fork is from the return spring in the slave cylinder, not strong at all. There should be just a bit of free play at the clutch pedal when the master cylinder is relaxed.

The kit in general is well made and has everything you'd need to complete it, you just supply the gearbox. It is not quite " one size fits all" but pretty close. I hope this helps someone, someday. I did find that a large bottle of Ibuprophen was useful when it was too early to start drinking.

 

[ahealey1004]

Congratulations Jon on a job well done. Sounds like after much fiddling and creativity, you prevailed! Hope you get back on the road soon and eager to hear how you like the way your 100 shifts with a modern gearbox.
Austin

 

[roscoe]

One thing I failed to mention but is a subject that has been discussed here with regard to both 4 and 6 cylinder cars is what to use for a transmission tunnel cover. I suspect that the tunnel cover is different enough between the BN1 and the BN2 that what I found may not apply to a geabox swap in a BN 1 but I do not know. I was able to cut hole just forward of the ashtray to accommodate the shift tower and use my tunnel cover with no other modification. Years ago I found it advantageous to cut my tunnel cover about in half ( laterally, not longetudinally ) to make it much easier to remove and install, so it was a breeze to mark where to cut then hole for the shifter with the front section uninstalled. The shift lever is so easy to remove on the W58 gearbox that even an intact cover would be a breeze to remove. I also just reused the shifter rubber boot.

I've temporarily covered the old shifter hole and there remains a ring of carpet trim. Looking at it made me think that it would make a perfect cup holder if I can find a covered cup of the right size. An open cup would not remain full for very long with Healey suspension on the roads where I live. In truth, perhaps just a little cup for holding change ( does anyone use change anymore?) or something else small, like my ear plug case would be my choice.

My first highway trip is today but in the 10 miles or so I've driven so far I am over the moon about the swap. Although I had the tail housing off and the front seal carrier off on my used Toyota box, you never can know what you've got until you run it unless you overhaul it. It came with a good history. Oddly, as the advertisement says, the car seems noticibly quieter than before. I've never noticed what I would consider to be transmission noise but what do I know? I'll see what my better half thinks today.

 

[John Turney]

Thanks, Rosco. I was wondering about the tunnel cover in going from a side shift to a Toyota box.

 

[steveg]

I'm using the stock side shift tunnel, W58 trans with the forward-position shift tower. Pop riveted a sheet-metal cover for the old shifter hole and had the tunnel re-carpeted.

 

[RDKeysor]

My BN7 purchased in southern Virginia from a Winston Salem, N.C. owner, came with the excellent Toyota 5-speed. However, I didn't no dick about Healey heater systems since I sold my first one in 1964, and made the drive home from Virginia in January of February without a heater. To this day I wonder why I bought this car because when I test-drove it I found it very difficult to find the gears (my daily driver Porsche has a six-speed, so I'm not novice). Driving the car back to northeast Florida was pure torture, as I would accelerate out onto the interstate highway, get fourth gear, and then upshifted and found myself in third. Many variations of this during the long drive, the re-entrancing onto the interstates greatly enhanced by the fact that the fuel gauge didn't work and I made a lot of unnecessary stops. Eventually I took the car to a collector car shop in an attempt to remedy the problem. The proprietor obviously didn't know much about these Toyota boxes, so he replaced just the little nylon bit that fits on the ball at the bottom-end of the shift lever. I again had trouble finding a gear to back the **** (supposedly repaired) car out of the shop after paying the proprietor approximately $160. I then considered finding a new gear box, wrongly thinking there was something wrong with the one in my car. Fortunately, I joined the Toyota truck owner's Web site and soon learned that these gear boxes are used in a lots of challenging applications (rock climbing, for example), and that people who sell parts for the upper nylon/plastic bushing others described in earlier posts here sell upgraded bushings. I popped off the top of the shift tower and discovered that my boxes' bushing was totally absent, went to the Toyota parts department with shift lever in hand, the parts guy went out and found a mechanic who knew what we were talking about, and I soon left the dealership with a new bushing that cost about $12. With the bushing installed, the car shifts perfectly. I know I've told this story before, but I want to alert members with Smittys that they should check that bushing if they have problems shifting with one of those wonderful gear boxes. Access to that bushing is very simple and was well-described and (I think) illustrated in an earlier post in this discussion.