Historical Paint Question

[Guest]

Hey Folks,

tdskip's recent post mentioned metallic blue Healey paint. Which brings me to a question about paint types.

Back in 1960-1, I had a friend who had a Healey 100-4, and he got it re-painted metallic blue (I do not know if that was his original color). I went over to his house to help him "wet sand" it. I don't remember whether I used sand paper or emery cloth; I just remember that it was the finest grain I had ever seen.

I worked about 30 minutes on this, and soon realized that it was impossible. Quick arithmetic calculations established that it would take two men 127 years, working on weekends, to sand that entire car. I didn't go to 9 years of junior college for THAT !!!!!!

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT ALL ABOUT? WHAT KIND OF PAINT REQUIRES SANDING AFTER IT IS SPRAYED ON? DOES THAT TYPE OF PAINT STILL EXIST? WAS HE INSANE?</span>

I look forward to hearing from youse.

 

[TR3driver]

Used to be you sanded between every coat. Not "required", but it gave a better looking paint job as you sanded away any minor flaws leaving a smooth base for the next coat.

Still in use today, but generally only between the last pigmented coat and the final, clear coat (known as 'color' sanding). Eg,
https://www.automedia.com/Color-Sanding_and_Buffing/res20030601cs/1

 

[Moseso]

I fix guitars.
As part of this life, I "paint" guitars too.
Guitars are probably the highest quality paint work in any field of endeavor.
You seal coat the wood. You fill the grain. You spray more sealer over the fill. You sand! (I forgot to tell you that you sand the wood to within an inch of its life before you start any of this...) When the base coat is PERFECTLY smooth, you spray your colors. Then you spray clear top coats over that, sanding in between coats. Then you sand some more with insane grit numbers, like 600, 1200 & 2000. Then you do the real buffing until it shines like a mirror.

I knew, with this background, that I would kill myself if I undertook to do the painting on my car -- so I took that work to a car painter. Guitars are MUCH smaller than cars. I can get away with the kind of time-per-square-inch I spend on a guitar finish job, seeing as it's only 3 or 4 square feet. My car would have taken me YEARS!

So -- What's all this got to do with "WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT ALL ABOUT? WHAT KIND OF PAINT REQUIRES SANDING AFTER IT IS SPRAYED ON? DOES THAT TYPE OF PAINT STILL EXIST? WAS HE INSANE?"

If you want that kind of finish on something -- the "mirror" gloss -- that IS what's required. Any paint requires sanding between coats. No spray gun (we won't even mention brushes or rollers) lays down a smooth glossy finish like that -- in any material. Sanding is required to level the paint and then buffing is required to polish it.

Car restorers and hot-rodders do things to cars that Austin-Healey, Triumph, Ford, GM and everybody else who ever manufactured cars for a living, never dreamed of doing. The short answer is that your friend probably was insane -- and his car probably looked GREAT! MY car is done in flat epoxy primer. Not the same thing at all! But, I don't worry about dinging the finish when I drive it -- which was why I rebuilt the car in the first place: to drive it!

 

[jjw]

"Wet" or "color" sanding is still very much in use today... probably not by the shops that are fixing the parking lot rash on your grocery-getter... but the restoration / hotrod guys are certainly doing it.

That's why you see the those high 4 and 5 figure price tags on the best of the best paint jobs...

 

[Roger]

The old-type cellulose lacquer we used to use needed a lot of fine sanding and polish anyway - it had little to no natural gloss, and there wasn't a clearcoat on top of it.

 

[hondo402000]

FYI when spraying base coat/clear coat paints, you DO NOT sand the base coat unless you have dust in it, then you sand and spray another base coat, and within 30 minutes you spray 3 coats of clear, letting the paint flash 10 minutes prior to the next clear coat. then if you are not happy with the clear coat you can wet sand with 2000 and buff it

hondo

 

[trfourtune]

I agree Hondo
There has been a LOT of developement in paint in the last 50 years with the results exceeding what used to be available without sanding. New paint systems "lay down" much better giving very good results. Wet sanding and polishing after, is still required for "superior" results. That's not to say that good results were not obtainable before but good results are more easily obtainable now. Fantastic, eye popping, results are usually hard work and many hours. Not everyone knows or sees/notices the difference. If your paint job was not perfect (orange peel in spots or inconsistency) you might want to wet sand & polish to even out the finish rather than sand the whole car out again and repaint.
Rob
ps- we have hand held machines (air sanders)to speed up the process of sanding, although some hand sanding will always be required.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

My husbands painted 4 cars, all of which were garage sprays. If he had a booth, zero humidity, no dust, wind, bugs, whatever all this work is probably not necessary. Base primer is always sanded, but since the paint is still tacky between coats (including clear coat) its not necessary to sand. Typically a few days after the cars been painted do you wet sand. The reason for this is to remove orange peel. Most poorly sprayed cars, including brand new from the factory cars have horrible orange peel. The wetsanding removes all the orange peel, and a rubbing compound apply with a rotary buffer polishes the coat even further. The result is a perfect mirror reflection rather than a squiggly reflection.

This is an example of orange peel. Depending on the conditions of the spray, it can be a lot worse. Some orange peel is not worth the trouble unless your going after a full show car look, but even then you risk damaging the paint by burning through. If you have two people wetsanding, it only takes a few hours, and the buffer takes about an hour as well. There is a reason why paintjobs cost so much. a $200 spray at maaco is just that, may as well DIY at home with a rattle can

 

[martx-5]

I painted my TR3 in the garage with the help of a 30 year veteran of the auto body business. He helped me out considerably during the body work phase showing me how to feel for the surface imperfections which was important because I was painting black. When it came time to paint, the day before I laid down several coats of primer. I used a gun (HVLP) I borrowed from a friend that used it to paint his TR3, also black. My buddy decided he wanted to use <span style="font-weight: bold">his </span>gun (old type siphon) because he was familiar with it. After the first and second coats, things looked pretty good, but after the third and final coat, we had <span style="font-weight: bold">major</span> orange peel. He left me with the wet sanding. Time wise, I probably spent 12-15 hours wet sanding the paint flat. After final buffing, the car looks good, but there isn't much paint left on the surface! :eeek: At least the body work is die straight. I'm glad I spent the time getting that right.

The darn thing is, I had the outer panels stored in the basement while I stuffed the engine and trans in and did most of the wiring. When I went to get the outer panel to install, one of the rear wings had fallen over and got very badly scratched. Well, I had some paint left over, and used the HVLP gun to re-paint. Hardly any orange peel. A couple of swipes with some 1500 and it was gone. I should've painted the whole car myself with my buddy's gun! BTW, he bought the gun from Harbor Freight for about $50.

I learned a lot from the experience, and would not hesitate to paint another car in my garage...or maybe the TR3 I just got done with, as since the paint is so thin, it may wear off in another couple of weeks! :hammer:

 

[UmmYeahOk]

The darn thing is, I had the outer panels stored in the basement while I stuffed the engine and trans in and did most of the wiring. When I went to get the outer panel to install, one of the rear wings had fallen over and got very badly scratched. Well, I had some paint left over, and used the HVLP gun to re-paint. Hardly any orange peel. A couple of swipes with some 1500 and it was gone. I should've painted the whole car myself with my buddy's gun! BTW, he bought the gun from Harbor Freight for about $50.

I learned a lot from the experience, and would not hesitate to paint another car in my garage...or maybe the TR3 I just got done with, as since the paint is so thin, it may wear off in another couple of weeks! :hammer:

One of the cars my husband painted, he painted the bumper separated on a different day, possibly even several weeks from the rest of the car. No orange peal, it was beautiful. Sometimes you just get lucky. Thats why its important to have a professional booth. Im sure he knew what he was doing, but the more humidity, the more orange peel. Where I live, humidity is pretty much a given, so wet sanding is just always going to be a step for us.

Now then, Ive had two different professionals paint parts on my car, and each had runs!!! Orange peel is one thing, but you should NEVER have runs. My husband had runs on his first car, but that was the first car hes ever spray with zero experience or training, and he at least wetsanded the runs away.

 

[TR3driver]

probably not by the shops that are fixing the parking lot rash on your grocery-getter...

FWIW, Earl Scheib (famous as the absolute cheapest place to get a car painted in the USA) offered to color sand my paint job ... for about $400 more as I recall but that included the separate clear coat over the top.

No extra charge for the tail pipe!

 

[UmmYeahOk]

probably not by the shops that are fixing the parking lot rash on your grocery-getter...

FWIW, Earl Scheib (famous as the absolute cheapest place to get a car painted in the USA) offered to color sand my paint job ... for about $400 more as I recall but that included the separate clear coat over the top.

No extra charge for the tail pipe!

Never heard of that company, but MAACO is known nationwide for having the cheapest, and crappiest paint jobs. Recently however theyve been trying to change their image, and have displayed several cars at shows with excellent paint jobs just to demonstrate that a MAACO spray can be a good spray, but I guess just like the company you mentioned, you they have to remove, mask, sand, clean, anything, the price is going to rise... ...a paint job their show cars had would probably cost just as much as one at a real shop.

 

[TR3driver]

Never heard of Earl "I will paint any car for $29.95" Scheib !?!
:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Whatsamatter, couldn't afford a television?


MAACO is a relative newcomer ('only' 1972 instead of 1937), but otherwise very similar to Earl Scheib. Don't know why you haven't heard of ES, there are a half dozen in Dallas & another one in Garland. They are likewise a national chain, known for crappy paint jobs and trying desperately to improve their image.

I remember when the neighbors had their daughter's car painted at ES. Looked pretty, until you noticed how they had painted right over a AAA sticker on the rear panel and of course the tailpipe was now light blue. Gave me a laugh every time I parked behind it.

 

[martx-5]

Earl is still around, but nowhere near the market penetration I remember from the '50s & '60s.

Although he's got quite a few places in SoCal for you to bring your car to Randall! :laugh:

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Never heard of Earl "I will paint any car for $29.95" Scheib !?!
:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Whatsamatter, couldn't afford a television?


MAACO is a relative newcomer ('only' 1972 instead of 1937), but otherwise very similar to Earl Scheib. Don't know why you haven't heard of ES, there are a half dozen in Dallas & another one in Garland. They are likewise a national chain, known for crappy paint jobs and trying desperately to improve their image

Even though most californians wouldnt agree (ones not smart enough to move here anyway), DFW is a huge place. They just arent considered big because they keep Denton Dallas and Ft Worth separate and ignore all suburbs. Anyway, the reason I have never heard it is all those dallas locations are very very far away from me. Id have to past 20 MAACOs just to get to one. The other thing is, if I had my car painted there, I wouldnt be able to drive it home. Not because the overspray on my windshield and lights would make my car no longer street legal, but because my car would be returned to me without wheels, stereo, and other misc items. Then I have to ask myself, is a $30 paint job worth getting shot, raped, or both? Theres a reason why they are located in the places they are. Ever playd Grand Theft Auto? If youre running from the cops, and theyre after a black car, just pull in, and they'll paint it white for you.

To be able to advertise on television, one must do A LOT of work to turn up such a profit, which makes me wonder just how safe your neck of the woods are. The reason I probably dont see commercials is because ours probably arent that profitable to afford it. Youre dealing with people who bought a $500 car, every panel is a different color, and $30 is well worth having them all match than buying a new waterpump.

 

[TR3driver]

Even though most californians wouldnt agree (ones not smart enough to move here anyway),

Easy there, whatever your name is ... I was born in San Antone ... and I was just kidding.

Don't know just when the "29.95" special ended, but it was many decades ago. Their cheapest job today is probably $300, similar to MAACO I'd guess.

 

[3798j]

Here's Earl in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uCDV8OWRQA&feature=related

 

[MDCanaday]

Modern clear coats are so shiny when cured that they tend to show nearly microscopic dust nibs in stark contrast.At my shop we sand 1500/2000 then finish with 3000 or even 4000.This polishes up in a snap and is often too nice for the adjacent(original)panels by comparison.Most factory finishes dont hold up to close scrutiny......
MD(mad dog)

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Even though most californians wouldnt agree (ones not smart enough to move here anyway),

Easy there, whatever your name is ... I was born in San Antone ... and I was just kidding.

Then you understand what I meant by that then. Most Californians just assume that everyone living in TX live out in the middle of no where, on the prairie or desert, with their cows and horses... ...However, over here we seem to have a HUGE californian community. Apparently its the new promise land. They come from tiny apartments where they cant afford crap, they move here, and even though theyre given equal or less pay, they are now able to buy mcmansions, brand new luxury vehicles for each licensed driver and all sorts of other goodies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Don't know just when the "29.95" special ended, but it was many decades ago. Their cheapest job today is probably $300, similar to MAACO I'd guess. [/QUOTE]

(playing with an inflation calculator)

You were alive during the second world war? COOL! Just so long as you didnt have to deal with the 30s... ...they had great cars, but no one could afford them.

 

[trfourtune]

Mad dog, i agree.
there is another point to make about Earl and Maaco, cheap supplies! The actual paint is (IMHO) 1/2 step above CHEAP house paint. Just to show you, go find out what a gallon of dupont imron elite costs. Consider you need base coat(2 quarts) and a gallon of clear with hardener and reducer (if required) and you are at well over $500 here in canada. Then add sanding supplies, gun wash, etc.
So a $300 paint job gives you what?
Rob