Front brake job - any advice?

[bigjones]

Hi folks,

Something is binding the front wheels. Everything is at least 15 years old so I'm guessing time to replace/rebuild.

I'm unsure about the calipers. BPNW has them for $80 each - are they any good or should I attempt a rebuild on the original Lockheed ones?

Moss Motors has Lockheed hoses and a TRW/Lucas master cylinder - do name brands mean anything anymore? Or should I just opt for the el cheapo ones.

I'm in the analysis/paralysis mode right now - someone give me shove so I can get started.

Cheers!
(1500 Midget, by the way)

PS. Just thought on. If I'm rebuilding the calipers, I might as well rebuild the MC - what do you reckon are my chances of success?

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Hoses - front and especially rear they collapse internally and max life q
Is 10 years. That may well be your issue. Not safe!!!!! I was able to get all 3 as Beck Arnley for < $40 on line.

you have not mentioned leaking wheel cylinders. Rebuild kits are cheap. I'm converting to discs up front on Bugsy II and went through Gerard to get master re sleeves in brass to 3/4". Pads and shoes, lots of choices from Moss Classic to higher performance like Greenstuff Pads.

Not sure what year you have but I was able to find a rebuilt master formy 68 Sprite I sold for $38

 

[Guest]

I agree about the hoses. I'd rebuild or replace all calipers/wheel cylinders and hoses at a min. The thing about an older m/c that works is, it will still work till it naturally wears out or it is damaged by excessive stoke. I've killed more than my fair share of good mater cylinders by bleeding brakes. Parts, like people; have "comfort zones" and don't like to venture outside them. When you bleed an old cylinder you are running the seal over an area it hasn't been in a long time (that's if you don't flush every year). There is usually trash/rust/crap in that area of the cylinder bore not to mention it still has some honing marks. When you push the seal over all of that is scars the seal and creates an internal leak.

You can still use your old one, you'll just need to gravity bleed the brakes first and use short strokes (1") to get the last bit of air out and seat the pistons.

 

[Guest]

PS. Just thought on. If I'm rebuilding the calipers, I might as well rebuild the MC - what do you reckon are my chances of success?

Definitely better than winning the lottery. :thumbsup:

 

[Jim_Gruber]

If you want to feel safer replace it all. MC a rebuilt Lockheed again is available inexpensively. I found Cardone rebuild < $40 but YMMV on quality. Rear Wheel cylinders around $30-40 each. Do you need to replace calipers? Can't hurt, but again this is your life you are risking if the car does not stop not ours. But first and foremost hoses, hoses, hoses. A problem with a sticky from caliper last year on Bugsy I which had not been driven much in the past year was fixed with a hose replacement. And rear hoses are especially prone to collapse.

 

[Gerard]

Calipers don't have any moving parts nor any critical surfaces other than the piston. That means the aftermarket ones are probably fine, and I think TRW is a good aftermarket brand. I don't have any personal experience with any aftermarket brand, I'm just making a generalization. As long as they fit properly and don't leak, they should be fine. That also means that rebuilding them is not terribly complicated. A good cleanup and some new seals are all you need. Inspect the pistons first; if they have rust or scarring of any sort, get new ones, as they are not expensive. Mostly it'll cost you time.

The later dual circuit master cylinders are a different story. They are rather complicated and if you are inexperienced with them, you can actually do more damage disassembling them (which is quite a frustrating experience), and you will probably not have a good outcome. I have rebuilt several, but never without having them brass sleeved first. Even the professional I used, would shudder anytime I asked about sending him one. You might get lucky, but they typically will still leak if you didn't get everything 100% right.

 

[Guest]

If you want to feel safer replace it all. MC a rebuilt Lockheed again is available inexpensively. I found Cardone rebuild < $40 but YMMV on quality. Rear Wheel cylinders around $30-40 each. .

Sold lots of aftermarket rebuilt m/c's over the years; as of late, all crap. I've had lots of trouble w/ over-the-counter rebuilt calipers too. problems is when they sandblast the seal grooves, lot's of leaking returns. Doing it yourself would be better (calipers) and new on the m/c. Put a piece of 1/2-3/4" wood b/w the pistons and use compressed air to blow the pistons of their bores.

DO NOT, (I repeat) DO NOT PUT FINGERS IN THE CALIPER WHILE DOING SO !

This is self explanatory and will not feel good at all. I wrote is large as we all forget sometimes.

Last w/c I bought were $12-$16 from VB but that was a few years ago. I think new calipers are around $100 if you don't want to build them yourself.

 

[bigjones]

Thanks mucho for the advice and recommendations!

Hoses .... I was able to get all 3 as Beck Arnley for < $40 on line.

...

Thanks for the tip, Jim.
I went to RockAuto and got the last of the Becks.

...The later dual circuit master cylinders are a different story. They are rather complicated ..

Gerard,
Thanks for the warning! I went ahead and got a (new, I think) CARDONE, again from Rock Auto.

,,,

DO NOT, (I repeat) DO NOT PUT FINGERS IN THE CALIPER WHILE DOING SO !...

Ha! Good one, KG. Thanks for the warning. I've taken one apart this afternoon. Doesn't look too bad. There was a bit of tarnish/crud but that came of with Bon Ami.

 

[bigjones]

OK, here's a good one.
The repair kit for one caliper contains 4 large O-rings and 2 steel rings. For each half of the caliper, one O-ring fits in a groove and the other O-ring fits inside the steel ring, which then fits in the top groove. Now then, half of these O-rings are fatter than the other half!
I think the DPO blundered and put the fat O-ring in the steel ring.
Who is right?

 

[Guest]

Anything cardone will/should be a rebuild; never seen a new cardone unit.

 

[Gerard]

OK, here's a good one.
The repair kit for one caliper contains 4 large O-rings and 2 steel rings. For each half of the caliper, one O-ring fits in a groove and the other O-ring fits inside the steel ring, which then fits in the top groove. Now then, half of these O-rings are fatter than the other half!
I think the DPO blundered and put the fat O-ring in the steel ring.
Who is right?

The square profile goes in the groove in the bore, the o-ring that has a sort of v-groove in it goes in the steel ring with the v-groove toward the piston. It acts as a wiper. From you description, it sounds like you have two the same on each side, instead of one of each.

 

[bigjones]

Wow! Thanks for posting, Gerard. I never even noticed the v-grooves, and so I would have put them in wrong. Surprise, surprise.
Cheers!
PS. Nice Morris you have there Gerard - or "Moggie thou" as we used to call 'em. My neighbor had a BRG, woodie, so brings back happy memories.

 

[bigjones]

Anything cardone will/should be a rebuild; never seen a new cardone unit.

Well, that's sad as it is on it's way. I (hopefully) assume that if it goes bad it will be a gradual loss of fluid or are you suddenly left with no brakes? What a thought!

Cheers.

 

[Guest]

Well, that's sad as it is on it's way. I (hopefully) assume that if it goes bad it will be a gradual loss of fluid or are you suddenly left with no brakes? What a thought!

Cheers.

No big deal, it's the calipers that I've mainly seen a problem, as in bad in less than 1000 miles. Cardone m/c's are hit and miss sometimes. If you have a problem it will most likely be within the first two or three years. From my experience they didn't last as long as they should have. Part of the problem may be shelf life. Cast iron bores will rust if not stored properly. I bought some brand new wheel cylinders from Rock auto that had rust in them. Ol' boy from rock said, "why don't you just hone them out..."

Just put it on and don't think about anything. It'll either work or it won't.

 

[bigjones]

Fair Dinkum, KG. Thanks for the info.

 

[bigjones]

OK, thought I'd finished the job but I can't bleed the dang thing.

Here's what I done:

Rebuilt the calipers (pretty easy to do, by the way)
New pads and hardware.
New hoses.
New(?) MC (Cardone - it says "New" on the box, but it's made in China)
Castrol 4 brake fluid.

Bled all wheels with Ezibleed. (This is a PITA thing to use but has always worked in the past.) Brakes work fine on test drive but the pedal is not as hard as it should be - keeps on going the floor if you keep your hoof on the pedal.
Had a beer and re-bled all wheels.
Re-bled while pumping the pedal.
Re-bled while brake pedal wedged in "down" position. (don't ask why, just thought I'd try it)
Can't see any leaks.

The MC instructions say it must be bench bled. Even supplied a little kit (you know, green plastic connectors and some black hoses. Unfortunately, the threads didn't match so I couldn't bench bleed.

That's all I can think of as to why the soft pedal.

Awaiting the good wife's return home tonight to do a modified "two guys and a six pack bleed" (the best method, IMHO). She ain't going to be too pleased.

Any thoughts?

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Well if pedal is soft or goes to the floor you've got a leak or still more air in the lines. Yes bleeding this puppy is a PITA. Lots of fluid and keep pumping.

 

[Guest]

Gotta bench bleed it first or you'll go nuts, pull it back off.

"Never enough time to do it right....always enough time to do it twice"...

 

[bigjones]

Jim,
Well, the wife was a real trooper, but no joy.
KG,
Yeah, I'm trying to think how I could bench bleed it without the connectors - the ones they supplied have different threads. There's this thing in the back of my mind whereby you can "bench bleed" with the MC installed. Can't remember where I read it. Something about just cracking open the connectors from the MC (with some rags underneath). Ever heard/done that?
Cheers

 

[Guest]

Jim,
Well, the wife was a real trooper, but no joy.
KG,
Yeah, I'm trying to think how I could bench bleed it without the connectors - the ones they supplied have different threads. There's this thing in the back of my mind whereby you can "bench bleed" with the MC installed. Can't remember where I read it. Something about just cracking open the connectors from the MC (with some rags underneath). Ever heard/done that?
Cheers

Bore has to be level. You can bench bleed with just your fingers over the ports but it's messy. You can also do it with the proper sized plugs too. Go buy the proper sized steel lines from a parts store (12" or so) and use those. They are cheap (~$2 each). Advance should have a loaner bender you could use right there to give you a 90deg angle. Bring the m/c in and match up the size.

IIRC Doc used just his fingers but I could be wrong. He should be along shortly.