advice on orange peel in base coat paint issue

Hey all,
This might belong in another area but figured someone who has done some paint work might weigh in. Got orange peel in my base coat when painting my BN2 hood today. Know ideally you should not color sand the basecoat so what are my options to solve this problem ? I assume I can go back with 600 to 1000 grit and wet sand the hood again and then put down a new base coat but that really takes some time with the louvers. Any advice or suggestions ?
Thanks,
Mike

Been doing a LOT of painting lately. You'll find volumes of info on orange peel, but no real surefire cures or preventatives. Usually, it's the result of not putting the paint on thick or wet enough, but then, of course, you risk runs. Also, using the wrong reducer for the conditions can cause it.

We found applying a thin, quick tack coat, waiting for it to flash and then applying a couple wet coats--cross-hatching if you like--worked very well. Still, you may get some orange peel; even some new cars have it.

Anyway, all you can do is sand it down. The problem with the louvered bonnets is you'll likely sand too-deep 'cross grooves' at the ends of each louver. For best adhesion of another coat, 320-grit is usually recommended, but I found the purple scuffing pads work very well (dry). I'd use the scuff pad and if that knocks the orange peel off you're good to go. Note you can't shoot clear if the base coat has already dried anyway, so you pretty much have to shoot another coat of base.

Good info here:

Autobody and paint repair.

Thanks Bob, a lot of good info in your attachment. Looks like I'll be resanding the base coat as it has been too long since I shot it and now could impact the clear coat. Know what you mean about the louvers as one reason I am redoing the 100m's hood was because of small drips at the end of the louvers left by the previous painter.
Regards,
Mike

I've painted 4 cars including my Healey with base/clear, but that doesn't mean that I'm an expert, just that I, too, have made some mistakes and gotten lucky.

If I was doing what you're doing, I'd wet-scuff the basecoat with a scotchbrite pad and when dry, wipe it with a tack cloth.

Then I'd lay the hood flat and shoot 2-3 coats of clear over it.

In a couple of weeks to a month, I'd LONG block (color sand) the clear with 1000 -> 2000 and buff it (hand buff between the louvers).

It you like the way it turns out, you are ahead of the game.

If not, strip the hood and start over which is about where you are now, but you have a good shot at having everything turn out OK the first time.

Tim.

Hey Tim,
Thanks for the advice. My question is won't the orange peel show through the clear since all the clear does is cover it up ?
Thanks,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Others should chime in on my response to inform us if I am correct or not.
Wet sanding the clear should remove the appearance of orange peel. (Depending on how thick the orange peel is.)

Here's an example:
A car that just came out of the paint shop, shouldn't show any flaws. As time goes on, the primer, base coat and clear coat shrink. You may see some sanding marks under the clear in the metal, filler, base coat at that point. Wet sanding the clear will make those sanding marks disappear. One would think it would not, for the sand marks are below the clear, but it does.

Sanding the clear should make the orange peel in the primer or base coat disappear. You'll be sanding the orange peel in the clear away too, of course. Healey's didn't have much if any orange peel from the factory. So removing the orange peel is ok.

Mike,

I suggest you ask your question on the Auto Body Store forum. That's the first place I turn when I have a body work or paint question. Lots of pros there who know their stuff. Here's one answer to your question. https://autobodystore.com/forum/showthread.php?14246-sanding-base-coat&highlight=orange+peel Although I did all the paint stripping, bodywork, filling, priming and blocking (and priming and blocking and priming and blocking and ...) on my car once I read about issues of tiger striping with metallic colors I couldn't run fast enough to find a pro to do the final shoot.

Hi Mike,

AUSMHLY said:

Wet sanding the clear should remove the appearance of orange peel.

Click to expand...

In MY experience, he is correct.

bighealeysource said:

My question is won't the orange peel show through the clear since all the clear does is cover it up ?

Click to expand...

Well, it might. A lot depends on how rough the peel is and how much post-buff gloss you get on the clear. Remember, the color coat is a matte finish and the clear is a high gloss. The texture appearance of the of final finish is largely determined by the light reflecting from it. The more gloss and reflection you have, the "flatter" the total paint stack-up looks. The glossy finish reflects INWARD as well as outward. Like a diamond, the "depth" comes from the INTERNAL reflection, not the thickness.

There are several IMPORTANT things to remember about painting with Base/Clear "paints".

They are not paint in the traditional sense. These multi-part compounds do not DRY by solvents boiling off as traditional paints do. They "Cure". They typically stay "Wet" until they gel, usually in about 20 minutes. That also means that any overspray is generally still wet when it lands on an adjacent surface.

When you respray your hood, use several light coats around the louvers and accelerate the cure between coats with a heat lamp. The drips that you have were caused by spraying heavy coat(s) and the paint "slumping" before it had a chance to gel or cure. Achieve light coats not by adjusting the gun, but by backing off a foot or two.

REMEMBER, however that while the paint is curing on your louvers and hood, it is also curing in your gun cup, that is why the heat to accelerate the cure on the hood. Just be mindful of the viscosity (I swirl it with a chopstick)of your gun cup after about 1/2 hour and make sure that the paint is not too thick to spray.

When sprayed, panels should be positioned as they will be mounted on the car. Hood & trunk horizontal and Doors & fenders vertical.

When you spray... Get a kitchen timer, set it for the recommended time, and do not touch the gun until the gun until the bell goes off. Especially on vertical panels, heavy or too many coats before gel will cause runs or slumps.

After you final clear, don't touch it for a month. I would not advise extended direct sunlight to accelerate the month long cure. Sometimes too much heat can cause lower coats to outgas, causing bubbles, as they cure

Tim

AUSMHLY said:

Healey's didn't have much if any orange peel from the factory. So removing the orange peel is ok.

Click to expand...

I also "do" Classic Mustangs. Early Mustangs DID have a significant amount of orange peel from the factory and in Concours restoring an old Mustang, the amount and texture of the orange peel is critical.

There is even a Concours min-max specification for orange peel.

Tim

MY 1966 GT FB. I painted it



AND my daughters 1966 Coupe (twice - 15 years apart).

Hey Guys,
Thanks for all your advice and the links to the two sites. I wet sanded the entire hood with 600 grit to get rid of the orange peel, looked nice, and then went to apply another base coat. Yikes, I got crazing like crazy and had to remove everything back to the original clear coat, meaning the two coats I put on yesterday and sanded and then the new coat today. I have just got to admit it, I am not a painter !!!! Repeat, I AM NOT A PAINTER ! Going to take the now fully preped hood to a local body shop that has done work for me on other Healey's and have them shoot the base and clear. A man has to know his limitations and thought I could overcome the "lacking the paint gene" one. Oh well, did discover what I thought was a good solution to getting the hood interior bracing painted without removing and then re spot welding back on. You can see the bracing through the louvers and it looked pretty nasty. So cleaned it up as best as possible and then simply poured a small amount of the thinned base coat and let it run down the channel. Know it sounds crud,but it worked as I sure did not want to take the skin off the bracing.
Thanks again everyone,
Mike ( I am not a painter) Lewis

bighealeysource said:

Going to take the now fully preped hood to a local body shop that has done work for me on other Healey's and have them shoot the base and clear.

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They'll need the car too, so they can match the paint to the shroud.
The painter may have a problem matching the paint perfectly.
The best way to make sure the bonnet matches the shroud is to blend or feather the paint into the shroud. He doesn't need to paint the entire shroud, just feather into the area next to the bonnet.

If he just paints the bonnet, in different lighting conditions, you may notice a difference between the two pieces.

Hey Roger,
That's what started me on this adventure with the bonnet. When I located the original bonnet for my 100M ( correct body number) I had it repaired and then supposedly color matched. Well, that particular painter took the easy way out and although he used the spectrograph (?) to color match, he did not actually get a perfect match even having a boot lid to compare. Then got a ding on the front and decided,"I'm going to get this matched and paint it myself". Went through the process of having a different paint supplier attempt to match it and although closer, still not spot on. He gave me some additional red base to play with and I now have a perfect match with the rest of the car - tested in a few non showing places and even on the shroud and it is now perfect. So,gonna take my paint and have him shoot it and hopefully put this adventure for the matching paint to bed.
Thanks,
Mike

Hi Mike,

The beauty of a base coat, clear coat paint is that the base coat doesn't have to be put on all that heavy. This is particularly helpful when dealing with metallics, such as Healey Blue (Ice Blue Metallic). If you put a metallic base coat on too heavy, this lets the metallic bits in the paint sink in the film, making dark and light streaks and areas (particularly where overlaping the spray pattern as those areas are wetter, the metallic has time to sink before flash drying).


Orange peel is normally caused by too low an air pressure and too much material being sprayed on.

Anyway, if you decide to give it another "shot" so to speak, setting the air pressure at the gun could be helpful, and don't put the base coat on so heavy.

Good luck, Jeff

p.s. credentials- I've breathed more paint fumes painting old British cars over the years than I want to think about.

I have had a few of those "I am not a painter" moments, I will not try to paint a metallic car again, my Healey Blue Hindred turned out OK, but in certain light you could see how the metallic didn't lay down the same as explained above, I don't think I would ever have the touch to get metallic on perfect.

A body shop guy I know said you don't sand basecoat, but I take that with a grain of salt, as production body shop guys don't "waste time" futzing with the paint like us home restorers do.

I have not painted that many cars, but never have used basecoat clearcoat, as an amatuer garage painter I just feel it is an extra opportunity to get a run or a bug or crazing or fisheye, or.....doesn't help with the original problem as the rest of your car already has the two step finish.

If you have a matched paint you should be good to go with a shop spraying it for you, I am a DIY guy at heart, and cheap to boot, but sometimes it just makes sense to have someone else save you some frustration.

Learn the correct distance and speed for spaying paint. If you cannot put on basecoat, the clear is going to kick your.....Assuming you have average sized hands. The distance of the tip away from the work surface, should be kept the same as the measurement from the tip of your pinky finger to tip of your thumb with your hand/fingers slpayed out. Do not break your wrist! Straight arm, move the shoulder and body. When the motion arcs the distance changes, the paint travels further,too much solvent dissipates in flight, the paint/product goes on drier, and TAH DAH! orange peel is born. Use Lots of light, half a spray pattern overlap, and slow speed.

Hey Y'all,
Thanks to everyone who weighed in on this subject. I surrendered to the gods of "I don't know how to paint" and took it to a local body shop that has done work on several LBC's for me after trying two more times to get it applied right and still coming out with issues. They are going to shoot the bonnet and hopefully my worries will be over !!!
Thanks again,
Mike

Hi Mike,I didn't read all the post so if I'm redundant i'm sorry. If you clear on top of orange peel it will sho thru. You can sand and buff all you want on the clear making it extremely flat and you won't have touched the orange peel.
So, sand the colour coat with what ever grit it takes to flatten the orange peel. I would start with 400 wet. The 3M red scratch pads are great for preping any dried coat for a recoat. You might be able to get rid of the orange peel with the scratch pads but I fear that that amount of massaging with the scratch pads will put finger waves in your surface. So suggest you flat/block sand your colour with 400, 600, or 1000 grit and massage the louvers with the scratch pads. And the gray scratch pad is finer grit than the red, it will work fine for prepping any surface but i don't believe it could remove orange peel. If you sand thru, you can spray rattle can self-etching primer on the bare metal spot, just 2 coats, w/10 minutes between coats, let all dry for 1/2 hour then massage it flat with the gray scratch pad and paint your colour. I have repaired my colour coat spraying that way many times. Dave.

Vette, are you positive about that? (Not being sarcastic, really want to know.)

I've commented on wet sanding near the beginning of this post.
My paint job looked flawless when I got it from the paint shop. The shop wet sanded the entire car, so I had no orange peel. Over time some sanding marks (either in the metal or the filler) started to show from everything shrinking. So I wet sanded the clear in those areas, and in doing so the sanding marks seemed to disappear. I didn't sand through the clear. Seems by leveling out the clear, it reduces what ever flaw is below it. I would think the same would be true for orange peel under clear.
Roger

Rodger, Pardon me if I sound unscientific or highly untechnical, I'm a practical applications kind of guy. To me it is just basic physics, whatever you do to the top layer isn't affecting what is underneath. I have seen more than one paint job that had orange peel from the bottom layers that could not be sanded out. It also depends on how bad the orange peel is. If it is not bad orange peel then it is just not as noticeable when you give your clear a super finish. I believe when you wet sanded your car the latest time you were also removing shrunken clear that also shrunk into the sand marks. Also, if the car was machine buffed, one of the final steps is to use glazing compound which along with a buffing action is also a filler. It fills the pores of the paint to make it as smooth as possible. This action not only fills the minut scratches but goes along way to hide what is almost microscopic scratches that even the buffing causes. When you give your clear coat a super finish, it is so smooth that it reflects so much light that minut scratches can't be seen with the naked eye. Sorry that I can't explain it better but I have truely witnessed the orange peel that is trapped under the clear coat. Dave.

Hey y'all,
Just wanted to report success with having my bonnet painted this week. Body shop did a nice job and although I wish I could have done it myself, just shows you that a "man has to know his limitations". I'll stick to things I can do properly!
Regards,
Mike