TR2/3/3A TR3 not engaging 2nd gear

[luke44]

Calling all trans experts! My non synchro 1st gear trans is extremely notchy going into 2nd gear. The problem definitely gets worse as the car warms up. When cold in engages 2nd just fine..once warmed up it’s a bugger to get 2nd to engage. All other gears are fine, it’s only 2nd, it does it on the downshift from 3rd and upshoft from first. It’s an o/d trans if that matters.

The o/d worked fine before the car sat 3 years during Covid, now the o/D’s not working either. I am running M/T90. But I can sort through the o/d later, it’s 2nd gear I’m worried about and I don’t think the issues are related.

The trans was rebuilt by renowned TR specialist Randy Zoller from Heritage Motorsport ElCajon CA and probably doesn’t have 100 miles on it. I’m not thinking slave cylinder or pushrod throw b/c the other gears engage fine.

Any thoughts where to look? Tia,

 

[CJD]

Well, it's hard to diagnose, but here are a few things to think about:

First, if the car goes easily into 1st gear with no synchronizer, but not into 2nd, then you can rule out the clutch.

Second gear has the infamous "top hat bushing", which is prone to failure. It normally fails without affecting the shifting of the tranny, but it could cause binding when it fails, and associated shift problems with 2nd gear.

It is possible for the shift fork to slip on the shifter shaft. That would normally cause issues with 1st gear too, but not necessarily.

I'm afraid all of these issues require the tranny to come out to address.

 

[mctriumph]

You may not want to hear my first thought , it involves a broken snap ring on the main shaft cluster.
This would make necessary a tear-down. To confirm you must pull the top cover and check the clearances
on the 2/3 syncros ...... if broken it lets the gears "wander" and the syncros do all manner of bad things.
This will get worse over time leading to ultimate failure
MD(mad dog)

 

[luke44]

Well, it's hard to diagnose, but here are a few things to think about:

First, if the car goes easily into 1st gear with no synchronizer, but not into 2nd, then you can rule out the clutch.

Second gear has the infamous "top hat bushing", which is prone to failure. It normally fails without affecting the shifting of the tranny, but it could cause binding when it fails, and associated shift problems with 2nd gear.

It is possible for the shift fork to slip on the shifter shaft. That would normally cause issues with 1st gear too, but not necessarily.

I'm afraid all of these issues require the tranny to come out to address.

Thanks for this yes car goes into first easily, of course once you stop b/c of the non synchro. Can you direct me to a part number from Moss so I can see the top hat piece?

 

[CJD]

Go to post #23 in this thread and you can see the top hat bushing and how it fails:

General Tech - TR2/3 Gearbox Rebuild

Now on to more inspections during a rebuild. Here are 3 3rd gears. At first glance they look about the same, but these are the areas you are looking for... Bad...missing teeth. Oil holes free and clear on both sides. Dog teeth. This gear has relatively rounded dog teeth, so I...

www.britishcarforum.com

 

[luke44]

You may not want to hear my first thought , it involves a broken snap ring on the main shaft cluster.
This would make necessary a tear-down. To confirm you must pull the top cover and check the clearances
on the 2/3 syncros ...... if broken it lets the gears "wander" and the syncros do all manner of bad things.
This will get worse over time leading to ultimate failure
MD(mad dog)

Thanks mad dog. The trans is coming out this week. I have 2 options - take it to a local trans shop, the owner claims he has an “oldtimer” on staff that can rebuild ”anything”. Or drive it up to QuantumMechanics and get in line.

I’d love to use the local shop and go in letting him know to look for the snap ring (is this pn 326-025 in the Moss catalog?) but while apart it makes sense to look at the o/d so I’m torn.

 

[luke44]

Go to post #23 in this thread and you can see the top hat bushing and how it fails:

General Tech - TR2/3 Gearbox Rebuild

Now on to more inspections during a rebuild. Here are 3 3rd gears. At first glance they look about the same, but these are the areas you are looking for... Bad...missing teeth. Oil holes free and clear on both sides. Dog teeth. This gear has relatively rounded dog teeth, so I...

www.britishcarforum.com

Got it, thanks! Thats Moss p/n 848-575 - I see they list it as a 2-piece steel replacement. Or p/n 848-580, in bronze. Any preference which way to go?

 

[CJD]

I'd go with the steel replacement...if it turns out the top hat is the problem.

 

[mctriumph]

The real problem is the Churchall tool that is used to install the dreaded snap ring.You need to find the old timer
who has the tools. As with most things I do know a guy. but of course he is here (Topeka).
MD(mad dog)

 

[luke44]

I think I’ll start with my local guy, he’s 5 mins away…the top hat and circlip are good starting points. If it’s not obvious to him I’ll figure out where to go next. Thanks for the input.

 

[luke44]

Update May 10. I bought a used non o/d trans on eBay and r&r’d the o/d trans. Of course no guarantees but was said to be working. Hmm.

Wouldn’t you know it. The replacement trans is also problematic! The problem is different though, it goes into 2nd gear but locks in 2nd and won’t shift out without a lot of effort. I mean it’s like locked in gear, you have to push extremely hard to get the shifter to move out of 2nd. It slides easily into 3rd and 4th. But basically it’s only driveable if you bypass 2nd gear.

Is this locking in gear a symptom of the top hat issue? It almost feels like a linkage issue this time but I dunno. I thought the linkages were pretty bullet proof.

 

[CJD]

Bummer. These little trannys are not very tough. I started with muncies. You can attach a Muncie to 600 horsepower and speed shift 3 gears without ever lifting off the throttle. Triumph trannys have to be babied behind 100 horsepower.

In answer to your question, yes, it is most likely the top hat bushing, with a much lesser chance of being a linkage problem.

 

[luke44]

Thanks. I’m not gonna mess around anymore at least the car is semi mobile with a 1-3-4 trans. I’ll run the o/d trans up to John Esposito. Getting inside an o/d trans is not in my area of comfort.

 

[CJD]

Sorry for your trouble. It takes a cheap hydraulic press and by far the hardest part is removing the main shaft snap ring!

 

[luke44]

Well, mystery solved after John E got inside. It's amazing it worked at all. Here's what he came back with...given this trans was assembled with very few miles since by a renowned west coast Triumph shop it was certainly a surprise. Anyway, fixed now, sheesh.

I finally got a chance to look at your transmission today and here is what i found.

Whoever was in there before misassembled a number of items in the gearbox, causing your symptoms.
1. I know he showed he replaced all the synchro rings, but they all need replacing as they are below the clearance specs. You gave me new synchro rings for this.
2. There are no gaskets on the transmission mating surfaces, just a lot of silicone sealer.
3. Many of the bearings will need replacing.
4. The 1st/2nd hub is misassembled. This is what was causing your 2nd gear "baulking" problem. It also damaged the 2nd gear synchro ring.
5. The layshaft, thrust washers and rollers are OK.
6. The front oil seal and the shifter o-rings will need replacing - This is just from age.

On the overdrive:
1 - It will need all the bearings, o-rings, seals and gaskets. Like the transmission, there were no gaskets on the unit, just a lot of silicone.
2. It will need the internal overdrive clutch as the overdrive side of the lining is down to the rivets.
3. The solenoid failed load test.
4. The isolator switches failed test.
5. The lock tabs on the operating bars have failed.

 

[sp53]

Wow what a story. I bet they want at least 2K to 3K to fix that. I would be tempted to put it into a box and take it back to the first guy. But as I get older, I hate conflict and sometime the fixer guy can say more because he has become the hero. Anyways, sounds like this new guy will get it fixed correctly.

steve

 

[luke44]

I feel the same way. I bought the trans as a part of a stalled restoration project many years ago I think it was 2009. It was actually in go-kart stage with lots of boxes and no instructions. Of course, the problems didn't surface until 10-12 or so years later when I started to drive the car.

 

[CJD]

It's getting hard to find good help these days...

 

[mctriumph]

Want to unload the old trans?? I be your huckleberry....
Mad dog

 

[Hamish Racing]

I would always recommend that the engine and gearboxes are done late on in any resto about paint time so they are ready to fit on build up.
so many times I hear of these being sent off to be done on the strip down only for them to sit for years with parts rusting inside and seals going off. By the time it’s discovered there is no reasonable comeback on the work.
Best to store them un-serviced.