TR2/3/3A differential hubs early tr3 and tr2

[sp53]

I cannot understand the set up with the rear hub when the hub tightens because it looks like the hub bottoms out on the wheel bearing. The nut gets torqued at 100lb on the axle and seems to hit the bearing for the stop. I was looking at the back edge of hubs and they look scared from hitting the bearing. the cut edge seems to mirror the side of the bearing.

This is the old hub style with a split wedge tapered washer and maybe that wedge should stop the hub from going inside enough far enough to hit the bearing. I do not know. It seems wrong to me and my thoughts are to grind some off the hub, so it does not hit, maybe that little ridge. I probably have this flipped this in my head wrong. Any thoughts—I do not want to grind that little bit--- I need a way to measure the pressure on the bearing? Or just tighten it down to 100lbs and call it good????

Steve

 

[mctriumph]

This rear end was only used in early Tr2's It had problems back then, still does.
I would take it to a real PRO that knows his stuff. Or sub the later more reliable diff
in its place(show car/driver?)
Mad dog

 

[JHaydon]

Looking at the diagram and comparing it to the VW arrangement with which I am more familiar, yes, it appears that the hub should bear directly against the inner race of the bearing. The other side of the inner race should bear directly against a shoulder on the axle.

In other words, the inner race of the bearing gets sandwiched between the shoulder on the axle shaft and the snout of the hub.

The outer race of the bearing is located by the retainer flange bolted to the axle housing. That arrangement uses the lateral load capacity of the deep-groove ball bearing to keep the axle from shifting side-to-side under cornering loads.

The problem that I ran into with that arrangement was similar to what I think you're seeing, although much more severe. The VW hubs from Brazil are about as hard as cheese, and the axle nut torque is just about equal to their resistance to squishing. Stick on some racing tires that are 4x wider the the stock VW tires and the hub lasts about 2 races before the hub extrudes out of the joint and things get loose.

That was an extreme overuse of a well-engineered but poorly-executed part (purpose-built hubs lasted much longer). From what I've read the TR2 setup was, shall we say, a fair execution of a mediocre design. Gentle touring (or as MD suggests, riding from show to show in a trailer) is probably OK but spirited driving and the Stoplight Grand Prix will likely overtax it. Racing, even in parking-lot gymkhana events, is right out.

 

[sp53]

Thanks you guys I am sure you are right. The tr2 for me is something to work on as a hobby and therapy for me to look like I am doing something in my life. If I had different finances, I would probably prefer something else. But the tr2 is keeping me entertained, and I have a bunch of tr3 parts. MD I do have a tr3 differential setting next to this project, but for now I am going with this tr2 diff for some kind of originality.

JHaydon I kinda came to that thought about how the hub pinches on the bearing when I put the hub back onto the tail shaft of the transmission. Then it also came to me what the heck is holding this axle from sliding right out on a turn? The press fit to the axle?

Looking at the hubs I have- with what I call scaring on the end- might be the only way to go because there are not any for sale that will fit better. I guess I could grind the end flat and find some washers to get a flat contact after torqueing. Perhaps some of the shims used for the pinion bearing would work to build the hub end up and then some of that bearing smash stuff for crank shafts to see how much they hit.

For now it is oh crap. MD it looks like to me we are the pros. I cannot think of one shop that I trust their opinion. People do not fix this stuff anymore.

steve

 

[CJD]

Hey Steve...

I think this goes back to the trouble you had removing the hubs. I think your split collars are compressed too much (worn out). The hub should slide on easily, and bottom out on the bearing race, as it sounds like it does. Then the split collar goes on, a washer, and the big nut. As you tighten the nut, the split collar should lock onto the axle and center the hub before the nut bottoms on the axle splines. If you are bottoming before the collar grabs, then either the outside taper of the split collar is too small, or the taper inside the hub has opened up too far. I remember when you were trying to remove the hubs the collar was jammed fully into the hub,when it should protrude a small amount for the big nut to push against.

My split collars are all cracked, but I still used them, and they tightened on the axle fine. On my "to do" list is to machine new split collars, as they are unavailable anywhere I know of. I am still a good while from getting around to machining them, but I will include you when I do.

In the mean time, Perhaps you can find a washer that can go under the nut to push on the collar without interfering with the axle or hub? Also, Marv may have found a usable split collar.

 

[sp53]

The tapered collars might be ok; I have not got far enough to test it exactly. They are not cracked and look ok, but like said they could be over compressed and worn out. My main concern was how the end of the hub hits the bearing race on the axle when tightened. The two surfaces do not make a flat contact. The hub has a grove cut in the very end. I think from rubbing on an aftermarket bearing. I believe the aftermarket bearing cut a 1/32 deep grove in the hub. The new bearings are on the axles.

The cut might not matter.

steve

 

[CJD]

The hub is designed to ride on the bearing race. I don't know why it would be so worn, unless it was run loose for considerable time.

 

[sp53]

The one side of the aftermarket bearing has a rise on the one side of the bearing collar that sticks out that 1/32---- the size of the cut in the hub. I can set the bearing right inside the hub with a perfect fit, and both hubs have the same markings

My thoughts are the PO slide the hub down on that side of the aftermarket bearing and tighten it down then as it came lose retightened it until the bearing cut enough to fit flat and stay tight. The new bearings I got are NOS standard parts and are flat where the two met.

I kind a want to have the cut machined off the hub and make the hub that 1/32 smaller. It looks to me, like everything should still work; it would all just be inside that little bit.

My other brain wants to tighten it in place how it is, and call it good. Thinking the little grove is even and small and should not matter. However, it could peel away with heat and come lose that little bit... I do not know, it is not easy being me. Plus the machine shop is so expensive for something that probably does not matter. The story is those axle hubs leak anyway, so if I do get the car on the road, I could have a look when I remove the hub to fix the leak.

Steve

 

[mctriumph]

My advise on the bearings is to pack them by hand with Amyloid synthetic grease.It does NOT
melt in heat,lasts forever (in a race car), and may block the diff lube from leaking out. JMHO.
Wish I could see the problem up close....
Mad dog

 

[sp53]

That sounds like as good of plan as any MD. The only people I know with any experience are John and probably Marv with these older rear axles. I really have no experience with rebuilding diffs, but I like this older design because it is serviceable and I can visualize the tapered collar engaging the bearing and centering itself.

David on the forum had a tr2 in England when he was in the service and stated that the axles would break when driven hard.

Monday I will take the hubs out to the machinist that press on the bearings and see what he thinks. Part of me wants to take my hand held grinder and remove the grove, but it would be nicer to have perfect surface and perhaps some beveling down the shoulder so there is no sharp edge.

My main concern is screwing up the hubs and not being able to use them. I checked the size of the front pulley shims for vibration dampener and they should work for filler if I need to add something. They come .004 and 006 which is about the depth.

Does anyone see a reason why I cannot remove that little grove? I am probably over thinking this thing

Steve

 

[CJD]

I can't say without having the parts in front of me. Removing the groove will allow the hub to slide a bit farther onto the axle, which means the end of the axle will extend that same distance farther out of the outside of the hub. So the test is if that increase in axle sticking out will affect the way the collar,washer, and nut work. If the washer can hit the axle before the split collar can engage fully, then you will not be able to tighten the hub onto the axle.

It's too bad you are not closer. I have an entire Lockheed axle with hubs set aside (in case an axle breaks, LOL), but I don't see myself ever driving my TR2 hard enough to break an axle...knock on wood. I think it was untouched in my car before I swapped for the one with early wire wheel hubs.

 

[sp53]

I took some measurements to find how far the tapered color will go into the hole in the hub and there looks like there is plenty of room. There is also plenty of thread on the axle. Seems to me the tapper slotted collar can keep going into the hole probably 3/16 before the edge of the color on the slotted nut bottoms out, and I do not see why the nut could not keep tightening as long as there threads on the axle. I cannot see why grinding the grove out should effect anything.

I figured out how the grove got there. The bearing has an open side with the ball bearing showing and a closed side for the hub to contact and probably hold the gear oil back from the brake shoes. Somewhere somehow the bearing was put on backwards and the ball bearing side with the flared side of the bearing got put on the outside and was able to cut the grove. The bearing in the pictures is NOS and is put on correct. I guess people are supposed to know that the open ball bearing side goes towards the gears and the sealed side goes outside toward the brakes. Hopefully this will help someone in the future.

I found there are actually 3 sets of hubs, the early tr2 and then the later tr2 TS# 5556 to tr3 TS#13045 and finally what is the common tr3 axle hub. Out of the TS# 5556 some would have had the wirer wheel hubs and some the disc wheel hubs. The TS# 5556 wirer wheel hubs are very interesting in that the knock off threaded end comes on the hub with a LH and RH hub so the knock off can spin right on the hub.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

I have a set of split collars but they go with the diff and hubs if anyone is interested

 

[CJD]

Hey Marv...the collars Steve might need are the ones that hold the hub to the axle. Do you have any of those? I would take them if Steve doesn't.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

Only ones I have are with the complete wire wheel set. Don’t want to break up set

 

[sp53]

Well John I am thinking about moving closer to your house, at least way South. You and Marv are the only guys with parts that I know of. That is a killer deal Marv, and I would jump on it if my car had wire wheels. Mine came with disc wheels so the hubs are different.

It looks like some new stuff is being milled at Rimmer bro. I have not bought anything from them until now, but when I started doing this project, I found they are the only ones with the hard to find stuff for a tr2. I believe they sell a steal hub to fit the front of a tr2, not sure about the back. They did not have the tapered slotted washer.

Anyways Dave at the machine shop ground my hubs flat on the end for free. He basically but the hub on one of those big resurfacing sanding machines. He held the hub down with his hand until it was flat, then took a tapered socket the size of the center hole and twirled the hub on a bench grind to knock down the 90 degree edge.

Steve

 

[CJD]

Fingers crossed it all goes together well!

 

[sp53]

Mayday, I put the rear brake plates on wrong and need to move them 2 bolt holes to line them up correctly. I cannot get them apart to fix it. I used Permatex non- hardening for sealer everywhere and on the splines also.

I have removed the outside axle nut and washer and I am using a wheel puller on the hub trying to slide the hub over the axle. The hub will not move and I cannot tell if the slotted tapered washer is biting harder on the axle as I tighten down on the wheel puller. The hub and the slotted tapper washer should slide off together if there is enough force, right. Or, is the permatex gluing the axle and hub together on the splines. Crap Crap Crap

Using the wheel puller seems my only option. I do not want break the dog gone thing, pulling on it. I need a great idea or solution, mayday, mayday. Maybe it will pull apart slowly????? maybe melt the glue?

Steve

 

[Marvin Gruber]

My wire wheel set is looking better. I have hubs and collars. Can even supply wire wheels. 48, 60 or 72 (which are really to wide) spoke wheels

 

[sp53]

Funny Marv, you should come Northwest and I will hold the light as you get this one apart ha ha