Let’s talk motor oils

[Editor_Reid]

I'd hate to be labeled a science-denier, blasphemer, iconoclast, etc. (and in truth I've already been called all that and worse), but I have to wonder, Does oil selection really make any appreciable difference here? I mean, as long as there's some zinc in it, and considering how little we use these cars and how little we stress them, aren't we talking about hair-splitting, squared?

So maybe the difference is between an engine lasting 250,000 miles or 250,050 miles.

I use Valvoline VR-1 20w50 in most of my olde cars (and Brad Penn Oil in the 914 just because a 914 expert recommended it), and have never had an oil-related problem with any of them over the course of decades. I don't even know of anyone who had an engine problem related to choice of oil. Isn't it true that any modern oil, with some zinc, and of an appropriate viscosity, and changed every so often - 20w50 seems like the universal solution unless maybe you drive your Healey across the polar ice cap or the Sahara - then isn't it really 99.9999 percent all the same?

I used to send in used oil samples for analysis and can't remember ever getting a piece of information that I could act on.

So go ahead and flame away.

 

[dcarlg]

Reid, I think you are right.
Valvoline VR1 conventional 20W50 is probably one of the best oils for our Healeys. In fact, I have used it.
We don't need to split hairs, but there is alot of hype and misinformation.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

I think the overriding concern is with cam lobe and lifter spalling and excessive wear in flat tappet engines (engines with roller lifters or overhead cams presumably would not suffer this wear). There are lots of anecdotal reports of this occurring, often in 'young' engines. The cause has been attributed to the gradual removal of ZDDP in modern oils since it's blamed for premature catalytic converter failure. For the last few years, 20W-50 has been a 'holdout' to this trend, since few if any newer cars use an oil with this high a viscosity rating (although I believe some BMW engines spec a 60W multi-grade).

My BJ8's recently overhauled engine had a couple of worn cam lobes, and some spalling of tappet surfaces, and I've used name-brand 20W-50 oil since its rebuild over 20 years ago. In that overhaul, we had the existing cam reground, presumably resulting in lobes with a slightly smaller circumference which, of course, could have accelerated the wear on the surfaces (and the cam may not have been properly hardened). I also don't recall following the now-prescribed cam break-in protocol, which could have caused the problem as well. So, employing the proper break-in procedure and using an oil with at least the minimum recommended level of ZDDP seems, at least, to be the 'safe' approach. I just stocked-up on VR1, and the oil analysis was good after 5K miles so I'll be using it for the foreseeable future. I also installed a DWR1 cam, which has oiling holes on the lobes, which presumably will keep a good film of zinc- and phosphorous-laden lubricant on the high pressure surfaces.

OTOH, the Castrol site, among others, seem to suggest that 'classic' cars should only use oils with a formulation and additive package that was in use when our engines were first manufactured. To me, this is like saying us, um, 'classic' people who were manufactured in the 1940s and 1950s should not use modern medications, since they weren't available when we were manufactured.

 

[Editor_Reid]

Thanks Bob. That's clear and well-stated.

I guess that the bottom line for me with no freshly rebuilt engines and already using VR-1 20w50 is to keep doing what I've been doing for many years: check the oil level frequently, and change oil and filter every so often. I guess I could go wild and add ZDDP with those oil changes.

You're a great and appreciated resource here - as are several others - and I always read your posts closely. Thanks for your valuable participation here.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Upon dismantling my BJ8 engine for overhaul I had 6 lifters with noticeable wear and camshaft with some Noticeable wear.

I’ve used VR1 but not always there was Castro’s before that. Elgin Cams located in Calif recommended the Mobil 15w-50 synthetic as circled on the spreadsheet I posted. I believe he is most familiar with camshaft and lifter wear since specializes in it and we should keep that in mind.

It’s going to be a toss up for me between my usual VR1 20w-50 and the Mobil 15w-50 synthetic.

I recently changed the oil oil in my carbs to the Mobil 15w-50 after reading a blog from an SU expert. My idle improved as well as cold starting. (Something for another discussion topic)

 

[Randy Forbes]

Bob - Can you interpret the data for us: is that a really good report?

Other than the first 500 miles on Joe Gibbs 15w-50 Break-in oil, I've got 3000+ miles on VR-1 20w-50 since my rebuild last summer.

Here's a link to an interactive report (choose the gasoline/diesel report): https://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php

Just roll your mouse over the shaded blocks and text-blocks will pop up.

I've been using Blackstone reports for almost eighteen years, almost as long as I've been into BMWs (used Titan Laboratories before that, going back to about 1985) and I'm a big fan of regular oil analysis reports. I've got them going back to the earliest oil changes on all our sportscars (I drop the ball when it comes to my wife's X5s...).

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Thanks, Reid, but I can't hold a candle to Randy, Doug, Richard and others that are the real experts here. I'm a noob that likes to report things as I figure them out, hoping maybe it'll help some other noobs out. Funny, our cars have been around for 60 years, but we still keep learning new things about them.

 

[Editor_Reid]

I've been using Blackstone reports for almost eighteen years...

Me too, and for several different cars. I bought a batch of pre-paid mailers many years ago and still have a few remaining. Here's a report on my BN2 from 2012:



I don't know where the other reports are at the moment, but this one was handy.

By the way, a special thanks to you too, Randy, for your valuable and appreciated participation here.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Here's a link to an interactive report (choose the gasoline/diesel report): https://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php

Huh ... My report says "The TBN is very strong." But, there's no explanation of what 'TBN' is. Is it like The Force?

 

[MarkP]

FYI

Test reports for a variety of lubricants

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America
The independent resource for information and insights on the quality and integrity of lubricants in the marketplace.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

FYI

Test reports for a variety of lubricants

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America
The independent resource for information and insights on the quality and integrity of lubricants in the marketplace.

Very interesting. I had no idea there was so many 'off brand' fluids out there, many of which are, er, substandard. Looks like the name brands are all decent, but I didn't see any reviews of 20W-50.

 

[Healey Nut]

I just dont get this whole discussion . This oil thing has been beaten to death ressurected beaten and buried again several times over
The book says 20/50 Castrol GTX so just use and drive it .
Also this whole break in procedure bedding the rings dont over rev it blah blah blah .
When you buy a new car does it come with in super bedding your piston rings and being kind to your camshaft snake oil lubricant in it ....NO .
Other than some small print buried in the back of the owners manual that may say dont take it over 5000rpm etc for the first 100miles blah blah and maybe not even that .
Change your oil and filter frequently at least once a year , use whatever oil you like the picture on the bottle if thats your thing .
Drive it and enjoy .

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

I just dont get this whole discussion . This oil thing has been beaten to death ressurected beaten and buried again several times over
The book says 20/50 Castrol GTX so just use and drive it .
Also this whole break in procedure bedding the rings dont over rev it blah blah blah .
When you buy a new car does it come with in super bedding your piston rings and being kind to your camshaft snake oil lubricant in it ....NO .
Other than some small print buried in the back of the owners manual that may say dont take it over 5000rpm etc for the first 100miles blah blah and maybe not even that .
Change your oil and filter frequently at least once a year , use whatever oil you like the picture on the bottle if thats your thing .
Drive it and enjoy .

Our cars are our hobby and most of us like to discuss things over and over particularly items that we are interested in. Oil has been changing over the years or so we’ve been told so I don’t see what the harm is in bringing it up again and again. The “break in” procedure with “break in” oil for cars older than 1980 was standard procedure. Every car my folks bough new had a “break in” oil that was changed after 500 miles of driving.

 

[Healey Nut]

Our cars are our hobby and most of us like to discuss things over and over particularly items that we are interested in. Oil has been changing over the years or so we’ve been told so I don’t see what the harm is in bringing it up again and again. The “break in” procedure with “break in” oil for cars older than 1980 was standard procedure. Every car my folks bough new had a “break in” oil that was changed after 500 miles of driving.

Well have fun debating the science of snake oils and sodium , magnesium, phosphates , ZDDP oil analysis and metallurgy etc . AGAIN !!!!!
Im going in the garage to turn some wrenches and install a new gear reduction starter motor and I may even do an oil change ........20/50 GTX for me .
But only after watching qualifying for the F1 race tomorrow.......
Lewis its Hammertime !!!!!!

 

[Bob_Spidell]

... When you buy a new car does it come with in super bedding your piston rings and being kind to your camshaft snake oil lubricant in it ....NO .
Other than some small print buried in the back of the owners manual that may say dont take it over 5000rpm etc for the first 100miles blah blah and maybe not even that .
Change your oil and filter frequently at least once a year , use whatever oil you like the picture on the bottle if thats your thing .
Drive it and enjoy .

Name a modern car that comes with a flat tappet (solid lifter) camshaft. Most of the cam manufacturers/grinders disagree with you (they have very specific break-in procedures, including voiding your warranty if it isn't done properly). Modern cars come with OHCs, better metallurgy and much tighter tolerances and clearances so, yeah, break-in isn't as critical. Even with that, the choice of oil can be critical: The owner's manual for my Mustang GT spec'd 5W-20 semi-syn oil--yeah, Motorcraft--but I had a case of 10W-30 lying around and for a while figured I could use that (close enough, eh?). Turns out a thicker oil takes longer to reach the timing chain guides, which are plastic, and are known to disintegrate, esp. if a too viscous oil is used. For my BJ8's break-in--after the cam break-in--I followed my dad's break-in procedure: "Break it in like you're going to drive it."

MarkP's link identifies quite a few oils that don't meet spec, and some were considered pure junk that can damage engines (it seems anybody can buy some sort of semi-refined oil, put it in a quart bottle, put a label on it and sell it). "The book" for the 6-cyl cars names a number of suitable 20W-50 oils, not just Castrol. It's still packed, but IIRC 'the book' for the 100s only mentions straight weight oils, since multi-vis oils didn't exist in 1954 (AFAIK). So the manufacturers changed with the times.

Our cars are a hobby, so us owners have a more keen interest in their workings. Modern cars are, for the most part, disposable appliances. Many, if not most, are just leased--aka 'borrowed'--for a couple years so the owner doesn't even have to think about oil, etc. And, I drive the snot out my cars, esp. the BJ8, often going many miles from any sort of assistance, and out of cellphone coverage anyway, so durability and reliability are important to me.

 

[MarkP]

The discussion WILL continue, as a function of changing requirements.

The latest change? Welcome to API SN-Plus ...... which should start showing up in June of 2018

A good overview:

ZDDP: When, Where, What, Why, How?
Engine Builder
Dave Sutton

".......The requirements for an SN rating are the same 800 ppm maximum of phosphorus, but a new test has been added. A phosphorus retention test that may require the use of different or alternative ZDDP compounds.

The effects of these alternate additives on older flat tappet camshafts and valve train are just beginning to be seen, but can include roller camshaft wear! More changes are slated to come. California is even debating legislation that would require the complete removal of some additives, including ZDDP.

Some of today’s motor oils can have strong negative effects on older, non-roller lifter design engines as we all have found. It becomes more important as valve train loads increase to use oils that are designed specifically for flat tappet camshafts, as in the use of high performance camshafts and high-pressure valve springs........"

Edit add: Should also note that too much ZDDP can also be a problem.

 

[DerekJ]

Healey Nut said

The book says 20/50 Castrol GTX so just use and drive it.

The book says your car should have cross ply tyres. Are you still using them?

Castrol GTX 20/50 will do the job, partly because it contains the 'snake oil' ingredients you mention. Mobil 10W-60 will do the job better, thats a fact. But everyone is free to use what they want and to post any comments they want to if they pertain to Healeys. Thats the whole point of the Forum. If you don't like it, try another forum or don't read posts that don't interest you.

 

[Jim 58 BN6]

So, the consensus is (but doubting there is one!):

1. Mobil 10W-60;
2a. Mobil 15w-50;
2b. Valvoline VR1 20w-50 ?

The Mobile 1 10W-60 is not available in the US, correct? Jim

 

[DerekJ]

Jim

From the discussion a couple of years ago I recall that the Mobil 1 10W-60 is not available in the US.

 

[HealeyRick]

Here's a ZDDP chart from Mobil 1: