Ignition Timing Issue

[RDKeysor]

My '60 BN7 had been running poorly, making what I'll call a blatting sound on acceleration at low speeds. So I decided to check the timing. Note this car has a Pertronix ignition, and I have never adjusted the timing. With the vacuum line disconnect at the dizzy and plugged, engine warm, my timing light indicated the pulley mark was more than an inch BTD. I turned the dizzy until engine rpm dropped from its ususal 1000 rpm to about 700. The timing marks were thenabout 10 degrees apart, approximately half an inch. It restarted and idled smoothing before I took it for a drive around the community. It ran perfectly. After a few miles, I stopped and let it idle for a few minutes, and then proceeded a short drive home. I noted that the engine was at about 200 degrees (it was maybe 85 ambient), a bit higher than I would expect. As I turned the corner on my street, the engine bucked and the car went sour. Subsequently, I returned the dizzy to near the original mark on its mount, started the car, and proceeded up the street to a stop sign, where the engine bucked and required extra throttle to proceed. I then drove about five miles, the engine running pretty well. The temperature was running at about 200, still warmer than normal, and soon climbed to 212 degrees. By this time the engine was running badly and actually quit coming down my street. Back in the garage, I took a laser temp reading on the header tank, about 212 degrees, and noted no sign of overheating, no activity in the coolant reservoir. After setting for about 15 minutes, I had to use the choke to restart the engine. The timing marks indicated I was about 10 degrees BTD. Rotating the distributor, I found the engine idle stepping up, and locked it down at more than an inch, quite a bit above the 15 degrees (51/64") that I found as the high side on a post on this forum. I haven't driven it yet. Diagnosis?

 

[Keoke]

IF your timing lite is set at 15 degrees BFTDC,Why don't the timing marks on the engine line up when you reposition the dizzy???

 

[vette]

RD, I'm not sure that your engine running characteristics were directly related to timing. My first thought is did you have a vacuum leak. I don't want to sound ignorant to you but I don't know your knowledge level on this so I may ask some obvious questions. When you disconnected the vacuum line to adjust the time, did you plug the end of the line coming from the engine manifold. If not your timing adjustment was off. If you changed your timing significantly then your carbs adjustment could now be off. Look at your plugs to see how they are burning. If you plug the vacuum line from the intake manifold you can run the engine indefinately without the vacuum advance. I have seen vacuum advance canisters screw things up badly sometimes. I know while I dug into the book when experimenting with my timing, I noticed that some of the earlier cars have a base static timing of 6*, not the 10 or 12 as later cars. But I don't think the difference would give DRAMATIC differences in drivability, but it will affect the carbs. I know this might sound stupid but I'm old, old school. I don't like dial back timing lights and they have been know to be faulty. Also they can be problematic with electronic ignitions. Finally, if after everything else, you may then need to verify if your crank dampener has shifted. But in my opinion, I doubt it unless you have been racing at very constant high RPMs. Just go thru a complete tune up, and just for ****s & giggles, put points and condenser in for awhile. Dave.

 

[RDKeysor]

I anticipate trying a Steve G suggestion for timing this car with the arrival of a helper later today. Need two people to hold and watch the rpm he suggests and another to watch the timing light and turn the dizzy. Per Vette's query, I did remove the vacuum line at the advance mechanism and plugged it with a round tooth pick. My relative knowledge on these issues is modest. At the point I am perplexed at why the car runs very nicely for a time, then spits from a carb and begins to run warmer than it has in the past, and then becomes difficult to even keep running. Yes, I suspect something is going on with the carbs in addition to the timing issue. I have never tampered with the carbs other that setting the choke function, successfully done with Steve's help. I'll report on whether his timing suggestion works for me. I would love to drive the car to our club tech session tomorrow. By the way, my timing light doesn't have any dial function.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Sounds like you're leaning-out as the car warms up; that would likely be fuel delivery (timing shouldn't vary unless the distributor isn't clamped properly).

 

[DerekJ]

Have you checked the weights and springs in the distributor?

Set the advance the old fashioned way. Advance it until the car begins to pink under load, then back it off a degree or two until it doesn't. Every engine is different.

 

[tahoe healey]

Use a wine cork (all Healey owners have at least one) to plug the the vacuum line. Get a timing light that has the dial. Cheap at flea markets or Ebay. Harbor Freight sells one too. Paint the notch on the pulley white.

 

[Keoke]

 

[Keoke]

This one by Innova Equusis about $40.00

 

[steveg]

Use a wine cork (all Healey owners have at least one) to plug the the vacuum line. Get a timing light that has the dial. Cheap at flea markets or Ebay. Harbor Freight sells one too. Paint the notch on the pulley white.

I had the HF adjustable light. The adjustment dial was small and very sloppy. Didn't trust it. The Innova shown above is their base non-adjustable model - $60 or so for their least expensive adjustable unit.

 

[bluegrass john]

I have the Innova light with all the bells and whistles including adjustable timing feature but I had no luck with that feature using solid core wire!! Installed a spare push om cap and silicone wires and the timing feature worked perfectly. Discussed this with tech service and they explained the not woking with solid cores wires was normal. Just a heads up if you use solid core wires you may not be able to use the advance dial feature on anbodys light.

John

 

[Bob_Spidell]

I have the Innova light with all the bells and whistles including adjustable timing feature but I had no luck with that feature using solid core wire!! Installed a spare push om cap and silicone wires and the timing feature worked perfectly. Discussed this with tech service and they explained the not woking with solid cores wires was normal. Just a heads up if you use solid core wires you may not be able to use the advance dial feature on anbodys light.

John

I'm not an EE--and I don't play one on TV--but this makes no sense and sounds like a cop-out. Modern timing lights are triggered by inductance, the expanding and contracting electrical field caused by electrical pulses through a medium; usually a conductive wire (some of us old-timers remember timing lights that had to have their trigger leads inserted inline with the wire and plug). If anything, the copper wires generate more induction--that's why 'suppression' wires are so-named; they suppress the electrical field--so the copper wires may be overloading the circuit that fires the light, but a well-designed circuit should handle it. I have an older, clamp-on style Craftsman advance meter--timing light with dial-in advance--that works fine with copper stranded wires (the case is metal and grounded, so I have to be careful to not let it contact any metal, but that's a different issue).

At the very least, the light should have stated it was not compatible with solid/stranded copper wires somewhere prominently on the box and in the instructions. Apparently, the opposite can also be true:

https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=272048

 

[vette]

RD, i'm trying to address each characteristic of your engine. The running hot issue can be caused by too much advanced timing and maybe a lean adjustment on the carbs. It also could be that it was just a hot day and you were ***** footing around with the car instead of just getting out there and driving it with some constant motoring. I tend to believe that if this kind of problem just arises without any precursors or mechanical changes by human beings that is usually ignition. And in that it is ignition it can be a few different components. That's why I suggest a complete and through "tune-up" at least with the electrical ignition. Points, Condenser, rotor, cap, wires and spark plugs. Put the timing at 5/8 to 3/4 of an inch before top dead center (that would be to the right of the mark on the crank pulley looking at it from the front of the car). Drive it for an hour or more, pull off the side of the road from a constant cruise state, ( to keep from running at idle) pull the plugs and see what colour they are. Adjust the jets accordingly. Get rid of that Petronics.

Bob, Boy I hate those new high tech, gee wiz, gimicktry timing devices. For crying out load, INDUCTANCE yet. But, maybe they are so good at picking up inductances that the radiation from adjoining solid copper wires could affect the pulse traveling on the #1 lead. Oh by the way, my old timing light still has to be clipped in series with the spark plug wire. Dave. PS; well it's not technically in series, but the little spring is and the aligator clip from the timing light trigger wire is connected to that.

 

[Michael Oritt]

Bob--

Taken from the Innova manual I found online:

"Some ignition systems and/or specialty spark plug wires (solid core wires, racing wires, off road wires) radiate above normal ElectroMagneticInterference (EMI) and RadioFrequency Interference (RFI) which can cause improper operation of testing equipment. Contact the manufacturers of these parts for instructions on how to use an inductive pickup with their systems."

 

[bluegrass john]

Bob you are right: On page 1 on the Innova instructions there is a note that states "Some aftermarket and /or specialty spark plug wires (solid core wires, racing wires, off road wires) radiate above normal Electro-magnetic Interference (EMI) and Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) which can cause improper operation of testing equipment. Please contact these manufacturers for instructions on how to use as inductive pickup with their systems.

It may be necessary to replace the No. 1 spark plug wire with an OE style plug wire during testing."

If I was an expert I too would have bought an older model Craftsman light !! INNOVA Technical Support 1 800 544-4124.

Just trying to let others know what my experience was with a modern light was. Now I know what Jeff from ADVANCE DISTRIBUTORS meant when he said it would be best to use an older type light without the clamp on feature to time a Healey with solid core wires. Bob, I would rather have a light like yours that works with solid core wires; If I knew the model number I would like to purchase one..........perhaps off E BAY. Please let me know.

John
























John

 

[Bob_Spidell]

The timing light I have is very similar--if not the same--as these (I found several at various prices):

https://tinyurl.com/nuvs5wk


https://tinyurl.com/ohnbxq4

I can't tell you for sure if it's the same model as the light is at my house and I'm at my folks' til tomorrow; I'll check when I get home.

Something's amiss if a 20+ year-old model can do the job, but a new one can't. The only issue I have with mine--besides the fact the case is (negative) grounded and my car is positive ground--is that the cabling falls out of the grip a little too easily.

 

[DerekJ]

There is nothing wrong with Pertronix or similar. All they do is replicate the opening and closing of the points and they do this much better than points do. If it fails it fails but when its working its working better than points. Why does everyone mess around with timing lights? You need to set the ignition advance to the one that suits your engine. Trial and error.

 

[bluegrass john]

Bob,

Like you it is difficult to understand why my light which is completely digital, very bright light, displays the RPM, displays dwell, displays battery voltage and charging battery volts and with suppression wires shows advance and timing. At times you think it can whistle dixie, but it will not perform using solid core wires. My fault for not researching the product more diligently. Always enjoy your comments and insights on this forum !! DerekJ has made a good point................the final decision is in the performance on the engine.

Thanks,
John

 

[Bob_Spidell]

There is nothing wrong with Pertronix or similar. All they do is replicate the opening and closing of the points and they do this much better than points do. If it fails it fails but when its working its working better than points. Why does everyone mess around with timing lights? You need to set the ignition advance to the one that suits your engine. Trial and error.

Agree wholeheartedly. We--my dad and I--have them on four cars and they've all worked flawlessly. I don't remember the year or mileage when I installed one on my BJ8, but it's been at least 10 years and 50K miles. Read an article on Auto Restorer the other day about a problem with an intermittent miss on a '55 Chevy; turns out the distributor was so wobbly the magnets would be 'out of the range' of the pickup at some points (it didn't mention the brand, but this would apply to any magnetic points system). A Pertronix can compensate for a worn distributor to a point, but the distance between the magnet rotor and the sensor is limited. Note the unit we installed in our BN2 did not have a magnet rotor; it can apparently sense the cam lobes and fire off that. Now that is impressive; all for the price of a few quality points sets (if you can even find them), and the time you don't spend installing and setting new points can be spent elsewhere.

As for timing, the nominal setting has always worked fine for me. One thing an advance meter can do is measure total advance, which is probably a more meaningful value anyway; I think it's 35deg at around 2,000 RPM or a bit more for a BJ8, so you can set timing while you're breaking in your new racing cam.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Bob,

Like you it is difficult to understand why my light which is completely digital, very bright light, displays the RPM, displays dwell, displays battery voltage and charging battery volts and with suppression wires shows advance and timing. At times you think it can whistle dixie, but it will not perform using solid core wires. My fault for not researching the product more diligently. Always enjoy your comments and insights on this forum !! DerekJ has made a good point................the final decision is in the performance on the engine.

Thanks,
John

Thanks, John. There are pros on the forum like Randy, Derek, Martin and Richard whose advice and opinions should be considered over mine, but I enjoy throwing my observations out there to see what others think. I'm 'self-taught' to an extent, but have benefited from the wisdom of my father, who started driving and fixing cars at age 13--that was allowed in WWII--and was an auto shop teacher and factory rep for Ford (and bought a factory 100M from a local collector for $10K--probably his best automotive 'investment').

I was thinking about the issue with timing lights and I'm wondering if 'modern' technology is part of the problem. Ever wonder why you can buy a digital multi-meter at Harbor Freight for less than $10 (even less with one of their ubiquitous coupons)? Yes, the quality sucks--the LCD display probably costs more than all the other components combined--and they'll probably break the second time you use it, but the fact they can even be sold for that price is amazing (a quality DMM might have cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars twenty years ago). Part of the reason they're so cheap--in addition to cheap Chinese labor--is their use of an 'application-specific integrated circuit,' or ASIC. An ASIC, as the name implies, crams hundred if not thousands of discrete components--transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc.--onto a single silicon chip and it's responsible for all the amazing things modern electronics can do (I briefly worked for a company that makes ASICs, and they could pack most of the intelligence of a cruise missile guidance system on a single chip). But, there's a catch: because each component is now microscopically small they are sensitive and relatively fragile to current overloads and voltage spikes (some components, like capacitors and resistors, simply cannot be made arbitrarily small without sacrificing function and durability). I suspect that amazing, whiz-bang, combination timing light, dwell meter, volt meter and Dixie-whistler simply cannot handle the inductive load--20K volts or more--from copper wires. And I believe the manufacturer knows this, hence the warning in the manual. I suspect the engineering design meetings went like this: the engineers, if they were gearheads, wanted to make a unit that could handle copper wires, but the marketing and accounting people didn't want the extra expense, or the fact they might not be able to cram all those 'features' into the unit if they made them more robust. They probably figured there wasn't enough of a market for a unit that could handle the loads, which is OK as a business decision, but they should have been more honest and up-front about it (like a large font, bold disclaimer on their literature and packaging). A single-purpose unit, like the old Craftsman advance meter, probably has only a few discrete components and a simple chip or two so can be made more robust.