TR4/4A Front Wheel Bearing Seal

[ghawk16]

Maybe you all can help. I'm in the process of completely rebuilding, well, the whole car. Ground up restoration here. And I'm on the front suspension and had a couple of questions regarding the front wheel bearing seal. I'm trying to avoid putting it in and taking it back out to trim the seal. So my questions to the knowledgeable people on this site that have done them before are: 1) Do these seals in the picture from the Moss kit look to thick to you and should I trim them? 2) Do I pre-oil them and squeeze out excess or put them in dry? I've read both from doing a search on this. Also...being this is a complete rebuild the whole "mark the bolt where the nut is" won't work. I guess I should torque to set the bearing, compress the seal and get some resistance then back the nut out "2 flats". And I'm assuming two flats is backing the nut/bolt out two flat sections of the nut/bolt from a specific focal point (scribe mark) on a flat portion of the nut/bolt. Thanks

 

[TR3driver]

1) Yes, that's way too thick! I suggest returning them to Moss as being defective. Maybe if more people would do that more often, they wouldn't be so inclined to sell bad parts !!

2) I follow the book, which says to oil the felt.

Why do you say the "mark the nut" procedure won't work? The idea is to find the nut position that produces the proper bearing clearance without the seal interfering with the measurement; then install the seal (and grease) and return the nut to the same position. Should work fine even if every component has been replaced with new. With seals that thick, though, you may need to note how many threads are exposed as well (so you can get the correct number of full turns when doing the final nut positioning).

Two flats is way too much IMO. The TR4 workshop manual specifies to only back off until the pin lines up. The original TR2 workshop manual did say "1-1/2 to 2 flats", but that was updated to "1/2 flat" in the TR3 owner's manual. 1/2 flat (1/12 turn) is about .004", which is the recommended end float for the wheel bearing.

 

[CJD]

This is about how thick it should be:



If you follow the manual, you spin the hub while torquing the bearing nut to 10 ft/lbs. then back off to key it. 10 ft/lbs will be enough to compress the thick felt, but will make the hub hard to turn until you back off the nut.

 

[PatGalvin]

Suggest you try a couple seals from TRF for the wheel bearings. Several years ago, I compared the seals between a couple of parts providers and found that TRF seals were spot on. The others were way too thick. I"ll try and dig up a photo I took, comparing those parts.

Best of luck.

pat

 

[ghawk16]

This is about how thick it should be:



If you follow the manual, you spin the hub while torquing the bearing nut to 10 ft/lbs. then back off to key it. 10 ft/lbs will be enough to compress the thick felt, but will make the hub hard to turn until you back off the nut.

I was going to say...my felt doesn't look too much thicker than yours pictured. Maybe once I put it in oil it will shrink a bit to that size? But then how much compression room will that give me? Also...what oil do you guys recommend to soak it in? 75W90 Gear Oil? Some other type?

 

[ghawk16]

1) Yes, that's way too thick! I suggest returning them to Moss as being defective. Maybe if more people would do that more often, they wouldn't be so inclined to sell bad parts !!

2) I follow the book, which says to oil the felt.

Why do you say the "mark the nut" procedure won't work? The idea is to find the nut position that produces the proper bearing clearance without the seal interfering with the measurement; then install the seal (and grease) and return the nut to the same position. Should work fine even if every component has been replaced with new. With seals that thick, though, you may need to note how many threads are exposed as well (so you can get the correct number of full turns when doing the final nut positioning).

Two flats is way too much IMO. The TR4 workshop manual specifies to only back off until the pin lines up. The original TR2 workshop manual did say "1-1/2 to 2 flats", but that was updated to "1/2 flat" in the TR3 owner's manual. 1/2 flat (1/12 turn) is about .004", which is the recommended end float for the wheel bearing.

Hmmmmm, I'm guessing some trimming might be involved. I'd rather not wait for new seals from TRF. But I'll soak them in oil to see how much they shrink. Per my question above, any recommended oil?

When I said the "mark the nut" won't work I was assuming people marked the nut where it was on the threads before taking it out. Then when they put the new seal and bearings in they just put the nut to that position and called it a day. I don't have my manual in front of me but I'm assuming it shows where to take that bearing clearance measurement. Because in my head I'm trying to think of where that would be face of the outer bearing to the nut? Face of the inner bearing to the...? I like the procedure above CJD mentions. Seems a lot easier than putting it all back together, taking a measurement without the seal and then ripping everything back apart to put the seal in. Also...getting the seals out with a light tap on the back of the bearing was good. But putting the new ones in...rec? Large large socket? Sorry for all the questions.

 

[TR3driver]

If you follow the manual, you spin the hub while torquing the bearing nut to 10 ft/lbs. then back off to key it. 10 ft/lbs will be enough to compress the thick felt, but will make the hub hard to turn until you back off the nut.

Maybe, or maybe not. Depends on how thick the felt is.

And what manual you follow. This is still the procedure I like, from (gasp) the factory TR4 workshop manual (2nd edition, with 2nd amendment)

 

[TR3driver]

Hmmmmm, I'm guessing some trimming might be involved. I'd rather not wait for new seals from TRF. But I'll soak them in oil to see how much they shrink. Per my question above, any recommended oil?

When I said the "mark the nut" won't work I was assuming people marked the nut where it was on the threads before taking it out. Then when they put the new seal and bearings in they just put the nut to that position and called it a day. I don't have my manual in front of me but I'm assuming it shows where to take that bearing clearance measurement. Because in my head I'm trying to think of where that would be face of the outer bearing to the nut? Face of the inner bearing to the...? I like the procedure above CJD mentions. Seems a lot easier than putting it all back together, taking a measurement without the seal and then ripping everything back apart to put the seal in. Also...getting the seals out with a light tap on the back of the bearing was good. But putting the new ones in...rec? Large large socket? Sorry for all the questions.

The seals don't shrink at all, in my experience. What oil doesn't matter, I use whatever is in the pump can (ie motor oil but no specific quality or weight).

The concept is that you establish the bearing clearance by initially tightening the nut (without the seal to push back) until all the clearance is gone. Then because the pitch of the threads is known (20 tpi or .050" per thread), backing off by 1/2 flat (1/12 turn) gives you .004" clearance. Yeah, the "torque to 10 ftlb" method is easier, but it won't always give an accurate reading. Not that big a deal, really, but I find it irritating (and more work in the long run) to find the bearings too loose after a few hundred miles (as the felt wears down to size) and have to readjust them. Especially if it happens a second time!

One way to install the seal is as given in the TR2 workshop manual (which is where the 10 ftlb method comes from as well): Just hang the seal on the spigot on the vertical link (at the base of the spindle) and install the hub over it.

 

[ghawk16]

The seals don't shrink at all, in my experience. What oil doesn't matter, I use whatever is in the pump can (ie motor oil but no specific quality or weight).

The concept is that you establish the bearing clearance by initially tightening the nut (without the seal to push back) until all the clearance is gone. Then because the pitch of the threads is known (20 tpi or .050" per thread), backing off by 1/2 flat (1/12 turn) gives you .004" clearance. Yeah, the "torque to 10 ftlb" method is easier, but it won't always give an accurate reading. Not that big a deal, really, but I find it irritating (and more work in the long run) to find the bearings too loose after a few hundred miles (as the felt wears down to size) and have to readjust them. Especially if it happens a second time!

One way to install the seal is as given in the TR2 workshop manual (which is where the 10 ftlb method comes from as well): Just hang the seal on the spigot on the vertical link (at the base of the spindle) and install the hub over it.

OK...TRF will be getting an order tomorrow. Guess I should have went with their bearing kit. I'm hoping their are pics of where to take this measurement in the TR4 manual. I'm picturing it in my head...but confusing myself as I think of the clearance. Is the clearance in the back or the face of the bearing and the outer nut? Keep in mind I need to put the rear locknut on stub axle so I'm going to have to torque both that and the outer crown nut down. I'm assuming that lock nut goes all the way on till it bottoms out on the flat surface. But if I get that bearing clearance of .004" then once that seal goes on I'll have to really torque it down to get back to the mark I made on the shaft. Then...what if I do back out 1/2 flat and it doesn't align with the hole? Move it back or tighten it a tad to get there? Too loose? Or too tight? HAHA I know...I'm overthinking this. And do people mostly do this with the hub and link off the car?

 

[DavidApp]

Not sure where my seals came from but I had a lot of problems getting the seal pressed into the hub like the OD was too big. In fact one got distorted when I pressed it into the hub. I may order new ones and re-do the seals. Was never very happy with the assembly.
About how thick should the felt be?

David

 

[ghawk16]

Not sure where my seals came from but I had a lot of problems getting the seal pressed into the hub like the OD was too big. In fact one got distorted when I pressed it into the hub. I may order new ones and re-do the seals. Was never very happy with the assembly.
About how thick should the felt be?

David

Yeah...I notice mine are a little tight in there as well. Not sure how I'm going to get them in without distorting them. Not much area to put pressure on them. Silly seals.

 

[DavidApp]

It would be better if they were a few thou. small. You could use a drop of Locktite to hold the seal. I had to straighten one of mine as it got a bit distorted as I pushed it in.

David

 

[TR3driver]

Keep in mind I need to put the rear locknut on stub axle so I'm going to have to torque both that and the outer crown nut down. I'm assuming that lock nut goes all the way on till it bottoms out on the flat surface. But if I get that bearing clearance of .004" then once that seal goes on I'll have to really torque it down to get back to the mark I made on the shaft. Then...what if I do back out 1/2 flat and it doesn't align with the hole? Move it back or tighten it a tad to get there? Too loose? Or too tight? HAHA I know...I'm overthinking this. And do people mostly do this with the hub and link off the car?

You should install the spindle (aka stub axle) to the vertical link first, which is what that big nut on the back holds. The spindle and VL have matching tapers, which must be locked firmly together. I've only done it a couple of times (usually I just leave the spindle in the VL), but I found that just pressure from my hand was enough to lock the taper tightly enough to torque the nut. But if necessary you can use a plain nut at first (which will spin down easily), torque to the recommended 55-60 ft-lb to lock the taper, then remove that nut and install a (new) Nyloc nut. Once the taper is locked, it should have no trouble at all holding against 60 ft-lb (if not, there is something badly wrong like a burr in the taper area or incorrect parts etc).

If you want to, you can dress the back of the nut so it lines up at exactly 1/2 flat from snug. But IMO having to go as much as another 1/2 flat won't hurt anything. A tiny fraction less than 1/2 flat would probably be OK, but I wouldn't want to go any tighter than that. The problem is that the hub expands when it gets hot (from the heat conducted from the brake disc) and takes up the bearing clearance. Once the clearance is gone, the bearing starts to heat up as well, slings the grease out and you're on your way to a bearing failure.

I've always done the final hub installation after the rest of the suspension is assembled to the car. Seems to me the brake rotor would be in the way while installing the arms and VL, but since I've never tried it the other way, I don't really know. Of course, most of the time I'm just repacking bearings and don't bother removing the VL at all.

 

[PatGalvin]

Thanks for the tip regarding the hub expansion when it gets hot, taking up the bearing clearance. I had never thought of that Randall. This forum rocks!

pat

 

[CJD]

I have seen so many of these posts that it is almost comical. After all these years the seals are still being supplied "too thick", according to many.

When you torque the nut...as in the TR2/3/3A manual...no amount of felt is going to stand up to the torque, so long as you turn the wheel as you torque. If there is too much felt, it will push radially outward. After following the manual procedures I can spin my wheel and it will do 4 good revolutions before stopping. While torquing the nut you may have to install the road wheel to get enough leverage while the felt compresses. Per my high school shop class, always turn the hub while torquing a bearing.

After I put the wrong integral wire wheel on the right side (or the other way around), I looked at the seal, and it looked perfect...no tearing, shredding, or other deformity. Torquing the nut to 10ft/lbs seats it right into position.

 

[TR3driver]

Oh yes, those ignorant engineers at Standard-Triumph changed the procedure just because they were bored.

 

[ghawk16]

Maybe, or maybe not. Depends on how thick the felt is.

And what manual you follow. This is still the procedure I like, from (gasp) the factory TR4 workshop manual (2nd edition, with 2nd amendment)

OK...so I looked in my TR4 manual and it says it is the same as the TR2. And...with the use of a jointing compound I can use the old backing washer. Beats trying to manipulate a new backing washer in. Now...which jointing compound should I use? I may just trim a little off the existing felt. If I destroy it then I'll order new ones. Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[Popeye]

Most points have been covered so far by folks much wiser than me. FWIW, on my TR4A, I used the TRF uprated axle (Uncle Jacks, I believe) plus bearing kit (including seals). The uprated kit is nice, in that shims are used to set the bearings, not a torque value, and without the felt seals in place. I then oiled the seals and assembled (most of the oil oozes out during compression). I did not feel there was any need to trim the felt seals.

 

[CJD]

The manual reference you guys keep quoting appears to me to be saying a different way to achieve the exact same thing in the 2-3 manual. Trust me, the felt will give when you tighten the nut to the marks you made. It is absurd thinking that the felt is going to overpower the metal parts. It's...felt! It will compress or squeeze out...either way accomplishing the desired seal as it happens. Certainly a better seal than trying to trim the felt to a consistent thinner thickness than supplied.

But, do what you want. I will follow the manual and never give it a thought after that.

Randall, thank you for pointing out that the engineers changed their minds. Very possibly mechanics were just as confused about this topic in 1956 as many of our members are confused today.

 

[ghawk16]

The manual reference you guys keep quoting appears to me to be saying a different way to achieve the exact same thing in the 2-3 manual. Trust me, the felt will give when you tighten the nut to the marks you made. It is absurd thinking that the felt is going to overpower the metal parts. It's...felt! It will compress or squeeze out...either way accomplishing the desired seal as it happens. Certainly a better seal than trying to trim the felt to a consistent thinner thickness than supplied.

But, do what you want. I will follow the manual and never give it a thought after that.

Randall, thank you for pointing out that the engineers changed their minds. Very possibly mechanics were just as confused about this topic in 1956 as many of our members are confused today.

I agree with what you're saying regarding the seal compressing. And the manual states what you have above. "Torque to 10 lb. ft and back between 1.5-2 flats until a new split pin can be put in." I'm going to now use the felt with the old seal washer so the seals go in to the hub easier. Now to clean everything up and give it a quick coat of paint to make it pretty before install.