When does it stop being a Triumph?

[Guest]

I've been a tad bored today, so I was thinking (ok, warming my skull rather than actually cogitating).

I've been doing a few bits to my car, and I was trying to decide when it stops being a Triumph, and becomes a 'rod'.

I'm trying to figure out - for my own satisfaction mainly - whether the changes are cumulative (so each one makes it less of a Triumph), or if there is one single thing that would take it over the edge.

For my own self, I think that as long as the bodywork, chassis and engine block stay roughly original then I still have a Triumph. If I swap any of these then I don't.

I think I'm ok with swapping the gearbox, the diff and most of the rest of the running gear. I'm actually more bothered by changing the brakes out for Toyota ones.

I'm still wondering about the inside of the car. The dash seems particularly Triumph somehow, and I'm not sure about if the seats (uncomfortable as they are) go if it changes it.

Anyone else have thought on this? Like I said I was a bit bored, so I'd welcome opinions.

 

[Brosky]

Alan:

When they were being raced, after all of the modifications in and out, they were still called "Triumphs", weren't they?

What you've done is far from crossing any line.

Anyhow, it's what you think that matters, not what anyone else thinks.

 

[Banjo]

I think when you start modifying the body, and or, drive train to be uniquely different from all others it starts to become a "custom". If I open the bonnett, and what's under there is something totally different from whatever the factory offered, or anything that is a commonly accepted modification, or if I have to really try hard to see the Triumph throught the highly modified body, then it's become a "rod" in my mind. It's still a triumph, but only by name.

 

[Guest]

Alan,
When I return from VTR in Irving next weekend, I will be able to tell you when a Triumph ceases to be a Triumph. Somehow, methinks mine (and yours) are no longer Triumphs, per se.


Bill

 

[LastDeadLast]

Bill,

I've got pretty much the same car that you have and I consider it a Triumph. I've tried to keep all of my mods "in the spirit of the factory's original intent". I think once you start transplanting engines you bring into question the "spirit of Triumph" if you will.

Take the AC Ace for example, once the Ford V-8 was dropped in the car totally lost it's British persona and became the Ford Cobra that became a legend. Most people don't even know it was a British sports car before Ford got a hold of it. The engine was pretty much responsible for that.

 

[Brosky]

Agreed...........good point of reference Shannon.

 

[swift6]

Bill, my TR6 used to be shunned by a large portion of the Rocky Mountain Triumph Club because of it's un-original state. However, two years ago I was stunned to discover that I was awarded a First in Class by the RMTC at the Denver area's largest British car show, The Colorado Conclave, where the RMTC holds a seperate vote for Triumphs voted on solely by RMTC members. That single ribbon meant more to me than the First (2002), Second (2004) and Third (2003) awards that I recieved from the larger voting populace (entire conclave entrants) because it seemed that the Triumph 'body politik' had finally 'accepted' my TR6 as a Triumph.

Last year I took my TR8 and was asked by several people where my TR6 was. I even overheard a few people saying that they were glad my TR6 wasn't there so that they might have a better chance at an award. That made me smile.

Keep in mind though that this is a popular choice award system and not a Concours d'Elegance. Even 'modified' classes at Concours d'Elegance's become somewhat of a 'popular choice' based on the quality of work, thoughtfulness and uniqueness of the vehicle, through the opinion of the judges and not through a scorebook. Based on those criteria and what I have seen of your car, you should still be well recieved as a Triumph at VTR, just in the 'modified' Triumph class. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

What with all the negative vibes Moriarty?

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[Guest]

I've got her all shined up, even put a fresh "MG" sticker in my rear deflector (what, no takers at $5000?)to woo the infield crowd (have any of you ever seen the infield at the Indy 500, my kind of people, although I did watch them with binocs whilst eating chocolate covered stawberries from the starting line - free tickets).

Hey, I am going to admire the concours crowd. I actually started out that way, till I began "fixing" some of the TR6's inherent weaknesses, like the dreaded bonnet release cable. After breaking 3 in a row, I copied the lever design from 6-Pack and it was downhill (or uphill) from there. I actually seriously considered a small-block Ford, had a crate motor on order because the Rover V8 (which would be more keeping in spirit with the British feel) was too hard to come by. Came to my senses (in deference to Dan) and kept the sweet sound of the 6, albeit a bit more raucous now.

Am I still a Triumph? Of course, unless you are one of the coffee-can-muffler-rice-grinder kids, then I am a Ferrari (because they never heard of a Triumph. get tired of shouting it out 3 times and they still don't understand).

I just like to think that those of us that have modified the TR6 are only doing what the manufacturer would have done had the model stayed in production another 10 or 15 years. We call them improvements .


Bill

 

[swift6]

[ QUOTE ]
I just like to think that those of us that have modified the TR6 are only doing what the manufacturer would have done had the model stayed in production another 10 or 15 years. We call them improvements .


Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

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Long live the TSOA!

 

[Alan_Myers]

[ QUOTE ]
Take the AC Ace for example, once the Ford V-8 was dropped in the car totally lost it's British persona and became the Ford Cobra that became a legend. Most people don't even know it was a British sports car before Ford got a hold of it. The engine was pretty much responsible for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmm. Interesting theory.... Except for a few things, IMHO:

Ford happens to be one of the biggest auto manufacturers in England. Most Brits strongly consider the company to be part of their "home team"! Today I would guess there are quite possibly are more Fords on the motorways and lanes of England than any other single make of car.

We Americans tend think of Henry and his Ford as a purely U.S. manufacturer, but they have long had a major presence elsewhere, especially in England/UK ever since the 1950s.

Perhaps the most blatant example is the Ford Anglia, a model only modestly imported to the U.S., although it became extremely popular in early/pre-NHRA drag racing? Granted, about the only British steel still in one of those those little cars was the body and frame, with a huge 'Mercian V8 engine and a narrowed rear stuffed in!

I recall there was a loud cheer of British nationalistic pride heard just a few years ago when Ford bought the Land Rover brand back from BMW/Germany. Of course, Ford also owns Aston Martin and Jaguar (not to mention Volvo, which has long had strong ties to Triumph, British Leyland, et al).

And, to make matters even more complicated, the AC Ace 2 liter 6-cyl. engine you refer to might have been manufactured in England by Bristol... but the design originated from BMW! And, when Bristol decided to discontinue that engine in 1961, eventually they replaced it with a 5 liter Chrysler V8!

So in the early 1960s, when AC found itself with a bunch of engineless cars, which I'm sure they had no problem at all shipping a bunch off to Carroll Shelby in Califronia to be fitted with Ford 289s, eventually 427s!

Enough Shelby Cobras made their way back to England to be blamed for 70 mph speed limits being placed on their motorways for the first time! (Probably not entirely the Cobra's fault, though the car might have been a factor.) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

By the way, Carroll Shelby's early racing career included driving Cadillac-Allards, so U.S./British joint efforts weren't unknown to him. And "Shelby" Cobras didn't actually become "Ford" Cobras until 1965, when he sold Ford the rights to the name.

All in all, I really don't know how I'd define when a Triumph stops being a Triumph. There are all sorts of "hot rods" and possiblities, not to mention there have been all flavors of Triumph models over the years - Southern Crosses to Heralds to Dolomites to Stags to TR2s to TR8s to Spitfire and GT6 - not just sporty convertibles. And even those increasingly had the spirit de-tuned from them trying to meet U.S. emission regulations. TR4 and TR6 were respectively designed in Italy by Michelotti and Germany by Karmann... Does that make them Italian and German cars?



It's a matter of personal opinion and taste, I suppose. I wouldn't worry about it, though... keep it original as you please, or modify if you wish! Just have fun with it!

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[AngliaGT]

Actually,Ford itself,doesen't build cars in England anymore.
Sad sign of the times.

- Doug

 

[swift6]

[ QUOTE ]
So in the early 1960s, when AC found itself with a bunch of engineless cars, which I'm sure they had no problem at all shipping a bunch off to Carroll Shelby in Califronia to be fitted with Ford 289s, eventually 427s!

By the way, Carroll Shelby's early racing career included driving Cadillac-Allards, so U.S./British joint efforts weren't unknown to him.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Carrol wasn't nearly as interested in the bodies as he was the chassis. He is a huge fan of the Tojiero (SP?) designed chassis. Also, the first Cobra's used a 260 V8. Lee Iaccoca (father of the Mustang) helped him gain access to the 289's.

BTW, I think that AC is still manufacturing Cobra Replicas in England. The last I knew the plant was near the remnants and museum at Brooklands raceway. Rover V8's were common in the AC built replicas.

Carrol also won LeMans in 1959 with Roy Salvadori (British Driver) in an Aston Martin DBR1/300.

Finally back on topic... If the TSOA came about as a factory supported group for owners to increase the performance of their cars I see no reason to stop doing it on our own. Triumphs were built to a price point but were able to be easily tuned and improved. I see the TSOA as factory encouragement to do so. Even if it no longer exists except in a few of our hearts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

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