The next rabbit hole. Help ID the chassis.

[apbos]

Here are a couple pictures of the next rabbit hole. I have more because it is now in my garage. Lots of parts and even build plans. However, I think the build was engineered to use a body (LeGrand MK 18) which used a motorcycle engine and a chain drive. I think what I am seeing is a mount for a Hewland gearbox? So what motor would it use? Go back to a chain drive? No dummy it was made for a SBC v8 and squeeze that motor in! Put a formula Super Vee in it!
Again your help is really appreciated.

Regards
Paul

 

[JHaydon]

If it originally used a Hewland box, then there are (were) lots of engine possibilities. Anything from a BMC 948 to an 1100 Fiat to a 1600 Ford (or Lotus) to an 1800cc or 2 liter BMW, depending on the class. Could have even been a 2-stroke Saab!

The age is difficult to gauge. The pedals look so modern and most of the chassis tubes look so fresh, and yet you say LeGrand body?

Do you have uprights and A-arms?

 

[apbos]

If it originally used a Hewland box, then there are (were) lots of engine possibilities. Anything from a BMC 948 to an 1100 Fiat to a 1600 Ford (or Lotus) to an 1800cc or 2 liter BMW, depending on the class. Could have even been a 2-stroke Saab!

The age is difficult to gauge. The pedals look so modern and most of the chassis tubes look so fresh, and yet you say LeGrand body?

Do you have uprights and A-arms?

JHaydon
You have a very good eye. As I have figured this was a new chassis was built around 1990 and at some point put away. The pedals are from a design dated 5-20-88. The other plans that came with the car date back to as early as 1979 and go 1988. The rumor has it was going to be using a Honda engine. The body has CSR on the side pod ( but most of these cars ran DSR). i have a lot of spares, panels and rivets that came with the car ( including uprights and arms) . My Hypothesis is the car had a chassis problem or they wanted to upgrade the chassis and/ or use a new power plant. Someone spent a lot of time and had a lot of welding skills and then just stopped! How do I tell what engine the car used? I do have a 1275 (or the 948 from my Sprite) I could use . I understand the Huffaker BMC Formula junior used a VW transaxle mounted upside down. I have the plans for the rear section and have taken a few measurements. The plans are difficult to photograph and view on the computer. Odds would be in favor of a Ford 1600. I have emailed the LeGrand Registry but have gotten no response. Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Paul

 

[JHaydon]

The Hewland Mk-series gearboxes were all built inside an upside-down VW main case. Very early (Mk I, Mk II) retained the tail shifter but with the Mk IV Hewland designed a unique bearing carrier that brought the shifter in from the front -- still, the main case (and some of the internals) was VW.

The caliper mounting ears on the rear upright suggest that it would have (could have) used a Mk 5 or Mk 8. The Mk 9 -- which was current in 1979 -- had inboard calipers mounted to the gearbox side plates. OTOH, if it were a small-batch or homespun design, they may have just used uprights from an existing design. (Reason I asked, a racing friend once told me that way back in the day he was involved in a similar project, and they decided to use Tiga uprights. Yours are similar shape but then again most are! Tiga uprights were one-piece hollow cast though, with no welding.)

Forgive the mess...

But in this photo you can see the Mk 9 bearing carrier as well as the inboard calipers. To the right is the Tiga rear upright. You can also just barely see in front of the oil cooler the trademark Tiga aluminum rear crossmember. It bolted to the rear chassis horns to make pulling the gearbox very easy. Most cars of the era had a solid trapezoid there, which was much stiffer.

 

[apbos]

JHaydon
Thank you! You are confirming everything I am suspecting. The rear crossmember on the chassis is bolted on( but is not cast). I am beginning to believe this chassis is an update or one off of the LeGrand mk18 chassis. The plans do not have LeGrand written on any of them. The uprights definitely are LeGrand “influenced” and I can not believe the draftsman would have worked on this chassis this design for 10 years. So it must be company built and very much like the mk25. The draftsman (N.J. Hart) places the drive line in front of the rear chassis see the plans below. They are not dated, but they are what was used. Therefore, he must be using and earlier gearbox because the mk8/9 would require a butcher job on the mounts of the gearbox and they would not line up. That means using a VW or VW cased Hewland and a bracket as seen in the the BMC formula junior ( see below) So we must figure they were going to use an mk5 or earlier gearbox or a hardened VW.

I do have plans for the motor mounts and will start determine what they might mount too. The mystery continues.
Thank you.
Paul

 

[apbos]

Update, the designer of the plans was Norm J Hart a long time Bay area SCCA member, driver and builder. Norm drove Honda s800s & Austin Healey Sprites in the 60’s and D Sports racers in the 70’s and 80’s? Looking at the chassis and plans it seems to have been a long term project designed for an engine using a transaxle and not a chain drive like most DSR’s. Research is on going and I am going to get a paper inventory of everything. May be that will give me an idea of the engine and transaxle he intended to use. I hope to have the body repaired by the end of summer and will try to save some of the patina.

Regards
Paul

 

[JHaydon]

Interesting! Yes, that FJ appears to have a very early Hewland, Mk I through Mk III, I think (the web pages that outlined the differences have all been taken down). I believe the Mk IV was the first Hewland to use the forward-facing shifter, but I'm not 100% if the Mk IV had mounts on the side plates.

But that drawing clearly shows a side plate with a mount built in (shown to the right of what appears to be the crossmember). From the contour of the transmission case, we appear to be looking at the right side. So that might be a standard Mk 9 side plate. OTOH... that mount is definitely far forward of the axle centerline, and the Mk 9 mount ends almost at the axle centerline. Hmm...

Another possibility is that he had planned, for some reason, to use some chassis-specific side plates from a Mk VI box. The Mk VI was basically a Mk IV (Hewland bearing carrier with a forward shifter) but with side plates made to fit specific chassis. Lotus (23/51/61) and Brabham were two with their own sideplate designs for the Mk series.

Lee Chapman Racing - Hewland Sideplates
Check these out. The Lotus at the top of the page are a definite possibility! Maybe Mr Hart found himself in possession of a transaxle from a Lotus 61 and a Le Grand chassis and decided to make a Sprite-powered sports racer?

BTW, Lee Chapman retired and sold his business to GMT Racing in CT (the link on the page above is incorrect):
GMT Racing

GMT have done the racing world a huge service by rescuing (purchasing/incorporating) a number of small but critical vintage racing businesses whose sole proprietors were all nearing or past retirement age. I can only wonder what might be different had they been able to rescue a couple more whose assets and expertise have vanished. If you need anything fabricated or repaired for that project, GMT are the place to go!

 

[apbos]

JHaydon
IOU beer or some excellent quality California Gouda cheese or some locally grown Almonds. I may be able to deliver this August if my daughter returns to Texas A& M to pursue her PHD in Engineering. (She graduated in May with her Masters).

What a fantastic resource! That Lotus 61side plate looks the business. I still have more feelers out on Mr Hart, maybe they will pan out. It has been apparent that Norm was into his Honda s800 engines. This letter from 1978 from the DSR news and others show he was trying to keep costs down and engine size inline, so cars would not become outdated. He lost that battle and engine size creeped up. If he gets limited to 1100 cc up to 1988 ( the last date on the plans ) a cross flow Ford push rod engine is out and the BMC and Honda s800’s are still in. I keep searching, but I really like the idea of the BMC engine, wiring etc. However, the car body is Honda Red!
Regards
Paul

 

[apbos]

Found this picture this evening. “Dubury Special“ that ran at the Monterey Historic Races in 2011. VW transaxlle 1098 cc had a Saab engine in the late 60’s. This may be good news as it shows an engine swap might be recognized.


This car is tiny!

 

[apbos]

A little more trivia about Norm Hart. In 1959 at Santa Barbra he wins his class in an Elva in a Novice Race. The overall winner in the novice class driving a Porsche 356…….. Steve McQueen!

Further information about the chassis. The suspension is all Elva MK7. Only 29 built! The rest of the chassis is LeGrand influenced, but has definite improvements in the design and is set up for linear 4 stroke engine. So the car is part British! At this point I made the decision to move to what I know and what I have in my parts inventory. It was pointed out that many engine swaps were done to these cars in period. A 1275 engine was not uncommon and I have one. The VW transaxle or an early Hewland were used. I will source one. On Friday I made a visit to the BMC formula junior guru’s of the early 60 ‘s Huffaker Motor Sports. They have not had to make an adapter for the a-series engine and the VW/Hewland transaxle in many years. However they had two prototypes on the shelf.

I have ordered an alloy back plate and my daughter will CAD an updated version based on the the two prototypes they loaned me! It is becoming a kind of interesting journey. Will probably move the project to the Spridget Forum as I progress.

Regards
Paul

 

[JHaydon]

That is awesome that Huffaker still had parts! Even better that you have your own engineer. (Congrats to her, BTW -- I hear there's a decent wage to be made doing projects like this!)

 

[apbos]

She will be paid an appropriate wage . She has been busy with some other school related things. She has decided and we concur that she should return to school in January. She achieved a perfect 4.0 GPA for her masters and we could all use a nice vacation! She just got a 3D printer as a graduation gift from Dad and Mom, so we hope to test the plate adapter, before we send it off for CNC machining.

 

[apbos]

Got a Hewland MK 8 locally, we’ll be giving it a complete exam next week. It was at a price that I could not pass up. May need to get some new side plates. I’ll mount it first and check the geometry. The CAD file is done, but our 3D printer can not print it fully so we’ll print sections. I’ve got to ask the engineer if we could print it in a material that could be used, instead of machining one from aluminum.

 

[JHaydon]

Mk 8? I'd call that a "Mk 8 and a half"! What's the bizarro linkagey looking thing hanging off the back where the rear cover should be? I hope whoever did that didn't gut the bearing carrier to make it work.

 

[apbos]

JHaydon, you have such a good eye! It is a Hewland part for a Super Vee. It allows the transaxle to be used in “ beetle” configuration and shift on the right or if the diff is flipped it can be used as a left hand or center shifter ( it seems to be the later). A rare box which I may sell on after using it to fit the adapter plate etc. It came out of a single seat McNamera ( rare car in itself). We’ ll be looking at the internals this weekend. It came at a price I could not refuse .

 

[JHaydon]

Paul, you are not going to believe this -- I still can't believe it myself.

I just got a call from a prep shop in California looking for that shifter setup! They have a Mk 5 -- which means they may have the "upside-down mount" selector and rear cover (I was so gobsmacked I forgot to ask). He also needs a VW/Porsche input shaft, not sure what shaft your gearbox came with, but if it's from a FSV it might be the one they need...

I'll PM you his details.

 

[apbos]

JHaydon
You ave a pm. That is crazy. My uncle and I were going to look into the box next week. He is visiting from Holland and worked on VW's in his youth before moving on to Peugeot. He has a dealership now, but when he visits he likes to get his hands dirty on the farm and help me with my LBC's!

Paul

 

[apbos]

Update.
Took the rear case off. The selector rods are turned inwards. The hockey stick could be moved over to the right, but can the selector rods be turned to use the standard orientation for the hockey stick ( with a new case cover ) or is the bearing carrier also different? Do not want to take the bearing carrier off until we have the correct tool to hold things together. I’ve got to think this through as to where I can get it to work in this project car. I have been and am still in contact with John. He did find a Mazda box for his car, but is still interested in mine.

Regards
Paul

 

[JHaydon]

Oof... I hadn't thought of the selector rods. Unfortunately they do look different to me:

FWIW, there is no tool for keeping everything together when removing the bearing carrier except your hands.

Engage 3rd or 4th gear and reverse at the same time to lock the transmission internals. I would do it by pushing both the top and bottom selector rods forward. Note that you can't lock it in 1 or 2 (middle selector) and any other gear at once, it should be physically impossible to move two neighboring selector rods at once.
Remove the pinion shaft nut (the top one, which should be left-hand thread), loosen but don't remove the layshaft nut (the bottom one, which should be right-hand thread), and remove the drawbolt from inside the layshaft (right-hand thread).*
Remove the 9 nuts holding the bearing carrier in place and put the box back in neutral.
Slide the bearing carrier away from the case while supporting the pinion shaft gear stack -- the layshaft gear stack should remain on the layshaft.
Tip the assembly so that the gears are up and the nuts are down. Support the assembly on 2x4s (the cheap, aggravating way) or on a purpose-built stand such as Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies part # 1409.
Remove the layshaft nut the rest of the way and pull the layshaft upwards to remove it from the layshaft stack.
Lay out all parts in order, noting which direction everything faces and how the shift forks mate to their dogs.
Reassembly is the reverse of removal... except SO much more aggravating! We need a tool to line up the splines on the pinion shaft stack and hold the stack in place, but no such tool exists (partly because the pinion shaft is larger OD than the ID of the rear pinion shaft bearing). Oh, and try not to get the sealant all over your hands at the same time.

* The purpose of the layshaft drawbolt is to keep the clutch shaft engaged to the clutch shaft to layshaft coupler sleeve when you pull the gearbox from the engine. When you reassemble, the torque spec for it is "finger-tight, then back off half a turn." With the gearbox not mounted to an engine, it's likely that the coupler sleeve will disengage from the clutch shaft. You can try to prevent it by pushing the clutch shaft towards the back of the gearbox, particularly when reinstalling the bearing carrier and screwing in the drawbolt. If the coupler sleeve falls off the clutch shaft, you will have to pull a side plate to reinstall it. OTOH, I think you'll have to pull a side plate anyway because you'll have to flip the ring gear/diff when you flip the box.

Resetting the selector rods is easy for very experienced hacks but a little iffy for novices (I've never had the guts to try but I watched it done entirely by feel in about 20 minutes, no setup jig or gauges... and then I set a track record with it!) IF the selector rods can simply be rotated, you shouldn't have to re-shim the forks. But if you have to replace them, or move the Reverse rod to the 3/4 position, you may have to have them re-shimmed. Of course, the spirit of Mike Hewland could smile on you that day... maximum interchangeability with minimum fuss was his goal!

I'll be interested to know if the top selector rod engages 3/4 or if it engages reverse. Trying to do the math/geometry/geography of the current setup, but I think that would have to be the case. Which would mean that the top selector rod would have to be moved to the bottom, the bottom to the top, and the middle flipped. Now I'm trying to picture if that means new shift forks...

Oh, and... I speak above assuming a 4-speed configuration. I believe FSV was allowed 5 gears, which means that when I say "3/4" it would technically be "4/5" and when I say "reverse" it would actually be "1st/reverse".

 

[apbos]

Excellent write up JHaydon. I should have said we needed the ”stand” vs the tool.

This is a good visual of everything you went over so well. I am going to open the case again tomorrow and try to figure out if we have a five or four speed. May be I make a video. The selector rods are definitely unique to this transmission, so I will not change those as the cost would be crazy high and someone might be looking for this very transaxle. A five speed might be very nice to have for those long straights .