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Soldering Lead and Silver

AweMan

Jedi Knight
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Soldering Lead and Silver:
Silver soldering filler wire comes in many different alloys from 5% silver to 100 % be sure to choose an alloy {silver content} filler wire to suit your needs. Higher content silver filler wires will flow at lower tempratures but at a reduced tinsel stregnth and visa versa.
Many of these alloys contain cadnium of which is a cancer causing agent. Who doesn`t know how toxic lead is? Fluxes are highly toxic as well. It is impearitive that you work in a well ventalated area when working with these materials and avoid breathing the fumes at all costs!
The first thing you need to do is clean the surfaces of the material to be joined of any grease, oil, paint, rust or dirt.
The sedcond thing is:
Materials usualy come new with a chemicaly induced oxide or "Skin" on the outtermost portion this skin needs to be removed. Use sandpaper to remove this "skin" or lightly grind this "skin" off of the area that the solder will be applied to. It is essential to remove the "skin" in order to get a good clean surface to allow the solder to bond properly, be it lead or silver solder.
Note: There are many diffrent types of flux for different materials make sure you are using the approporiate flux for the material you are soldering.
Next is flux application, apply a generous amount of flux to the area you want the lead or silver to adhere to.
Note: There are fluxes specificaly designed for silver soldering stainless steel. Make sure you are using an approporiate type flux for the material you wish to solder.
Keep in mind that when applying the flux that the lead or silver solder will generaly flow to anyplace that has flux and sufficent heat. Also keep in mind that when you apply heat to the flux it is going to spread out considerably. The key to making a visualy pleasing joint bond comes with practice and careful application of the flux.
Silver soldering Stainless Steel:
A common mistake made is getting the stainless too hot {or burning the stainless} If the Stainless turns black on the outter surface it is burnt and needs to be re-cleaned to a bright shiny surface again before continuing.
A slight carborizing flame is desireable, this "softens" the feather and outter cone which is the part of the flame you want to use.
The joint to be soldered must be heated evenly {all sides} periodicaly dab the solder on the joint to see if it is hot enough to melt the filler wire. Do not melt the solder with your flame, the joint will eventualy get hot enough to produce the desired capillary action. Use the feather of the flame to maintain heat on the joint moving around to all sides. Once you see the silver flow completley around the joint stop adding the silver filler wire, maintain the heat for another few seconds then remove it letting the silver solidify. You can use a spray bottle and water to cool the joint and this will also aid in removing any residual flux, residual flux must be removed as completely as possible, the flux is corrosive! A small wire brush and hot water works well .
Lead soldering:
Generaly the same technique although a different flux. Lead is a particularly good material to repair pinholes in floor pans or other areas. A "Dam" on the backside of the pinhole will prevent the lead from running through onto the ground. when lead soldering steel or stainless steel you should not use a copper, brass, or steel dam {heat sink} the lead will stick to these materials. Aluminum makes a good dam for this purpose.
Use as small of a tip on your torch as possible to accomplish your welding/soldering tasks. Expierment with flame settings but keep in mind that neutral or silghtly carborising is essential for soldering purposes. You will need a "Soft" flame. Take your time, you are not in a footrace.
Note: In most cases for our purposes an "Oxidizing" flame is NOT desireable.
I hope you find this article informative
Kerry
 

tlthorne

Jedi Hopeful
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A few years back doing a fender repair i came across a blue flash as i heated the fender to melt the old lead off. Then when i welded the patch panels in again a small blue flash?? Well this stumped the experts. Well i had seen this blue flash before,but where? uh? in a thermostat with silent contacts, mercury, so some searching thru old body shop mags, i came across that mercury was used as a tinning agent. Appearently this was used in the 30's thru the 40's. so be carefull leading or removing it. tt
 

DrEntropy

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OOhh! OOO!!! <waves hand in the air>

I was given to understand that spraying the joint with water or "quenching" will crystallize the solder (not allowing it to cool "normally"), with the effect that the solder becomes brittle, reducing its strength. This was told to me by metallurgists, so it may be that it would not be as big a factor with panels as with tubing joints? Or is this just a 'tempest in a teapot'?

...just curious.
 
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AweMan

AweMan

Jedi Knight
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DrEntropy:
Normaly I DO NOT spray the Joint with water, rather I let it cool naturaly.{there is NO need unless you are in a big hurry}
I have seen others that do!
When applying Silver to regular steel I`ll say that if sprayed with water, crystallizing MAY be a factor due to the carbon content in the steel. I.M.O. the only bennefit spraying with water has, is it allows for easy removal of residual flux and eliminates the cool down time so you can continue to work the part in question. Stainless Steel tubing along with Silver Solder alloys can not be "Hardened" as they have NO carbon content. After application of Silver to a S.S. joint the silver solidifies almost immediately after removal of the flame. So spraying the joint with water I.M.O. will have little if any effect on said joint. Again the "Hardening" effect on even mild steel is very minute due to the low carbon content.
In the time it would take to turn off the torch, lay it down and pick up the spray bottle of water and spray the joint, it would have cooled enough naturaly that I.M.O. spraying with water would not hurt it. However it isn`t something I do unless Im forced to hurry.
Kerry
 

DrEntropy

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Not so much a 'hardening' I was wondering about as a thermal shock to the solder changing its characteristics. I should have said LEAD, too. Wasn't even considering silver solder. Embrittlement of the lead solder, not the parent material, is more what I was asking. It seems to me if you 'shock' lead solder thermally it would be less-than homogeneous afterward. Sorta like "frying" marbles then quenching them in icewater.

...again, likely a wind-mill tilting exercise. Just musing.
 
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AweMan

AweMan

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I would not nor have I ever sprayed water on lead solder after application , My best guess is if you immediately sprayed water on a lead solder joint after application I would say yes you stand a possibility Of shocking the lead itself. However, if the lead has solidified and normalized completely but still has residual heat you MAY be safe cooling it with a spray of water.
{I can`t see any reason anyone would spray water on a lead solder joint} The Flux required to apply lead solder is NOT water soluable, so aiding in flux removal is not applicable here. The refrence to spraying water in the original post was merely to suggest an aid in SILVER SOLDER flux removal. I guess I could have been more specific as to the time frame after completion of the application of SILVER SOLDER as to how long to wait for the joint to solidify and normalize before spraying the water to aid in flux removal.
Kerry
 

DrEntropy

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NOW it's all clear. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

I wuz doin' the apples/oranges thing in my brane: You were specifically referring to silver soldering SS, I was ~thinking~ you implied to do the same with lead.
Clarified. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif
 
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AweMan

AweMan

Jedi Knight
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Not a problem Doc, Sometimes I take it for granted that EVERYONE knows as much about welding/soldering processes as I THINK I do! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

Seriously, I give credit for individuals having common sense sometimes. {most times} When in reality I know SOME do not have any. I guess most times it is lack of knoledge on a particular subject.

I used to apply lead to the Stator Vanes sealing area in the T-55 turbine engine {Chinook Helicopter} to form a seal between the stages in the compressor. There are seven stages, two halves to a vane stage, two sealing areas on each half. Two engines per Chinook,
I have seen individual vane stages come through my welding station multiple times. {these turbine engines get rebuilt every X hours.} Some of the stages are Brass. some are Stainless Steel, and one set {the #7} is 4130 Aircraft Mild Steel. So, I have applied lead on various types of metal.
We used a soda and water mixture to neutralise the acid after application. {give the parts a "Bath" so to speak.} From there they went to inspection, N.D.T.. And then on to machining and on to installation.
{all to keep those Korean era Chinooks in the air}
Chinooks are a lot like old TR`s some parts are available and some are NOT. The parts that are out of production must be repaired Or another Chinook bites the dust.
Oh! Here I am rambeling again
Sorry.
Kerry

What I am saying is I have applied more lead during my welding tenure than most people will see in a lifetime.
 

DrEntropy

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heh. I've put lead on automotive panels with 'butter'd' up paddles, sweat my share of copper plumbing and used it to tie various electronic bits to PC boards, wired tons of LBC's an' suchlike. If I'd known those Chinooks were runnin' on lead facings as seals it woulda been even HARDER to get me aboard one! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

BTW: I'm a Level II NDT type. Babcock & Wilcox, back inna day.
 
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