Block machining in process

[Brosky]

Below is the starting block and various steps through the process. The block was cooked and cleaned, line bored, line bored for cam bearings (12 straight hours) cylinders over bored 0.030" and an additional 0.005" taken out of the rear upper journal for the new bigger/thicker bronze thrust washers.

Naturally, it went through at least three hot soapy baths and had every thread tapped and cleaned.

 

[Trick6]

Paul:
Your block looks very very good. I marvel at how clean the shop machines and everything is. I am so glad to see that you are installing cam bearings. I was talked out of that and wish I had listened to my inner self. Oh well, next time. Keep us all posted. See you at "By the Sea" June 1st.
Al

 

[Brosky]

It was expensive, but you can spin the cam as easily as can be with just a slight twist of the hand. The crankshaft is the same way.

See you at Harkness!!

 

[TheSearcherMan]

No doubt, your machine shop is outstanding to say the least. However, I have most likely over 30k in my car. If I had done the engine the way you have, it would most likely be close to 40k. I don't have a money tree in my yard. No matter how much we spend on these Triumphs, they will never be a Jaguar, but, they may be better than a Healey, but we will never get Healey money for them. I don't want to offend you, but, most of this in my opinion is not necessary for a TR6 engine. The factory got close to 150 HP without doing this, and the engines lasted quite awhile. And, I suspect the best cam for a street car would be a CP cam, all things considered. You have to give up something to get something, and I suspect the TH5 will not idle quite as well as a CP cam, time will tell. If you get more HP from a TH5, what is the sacrifice? As far as cam bearings go, they are extremly expensive to install, the factory didn't put them in, and they did know what they were doing. But, it's your money. Enjoy it, we can't take it with us. Nice job.

 

[Brosky]

Searcher,

You are right in what you say about values, but it's my hobby and I want to fix it right, once and for all, while I can. As far as the money tree goes, I waited a long time to do all of this and after having it for 34 years, I really don't feel bad about reinvesting back into it. Having said that, this is spring, but most of the leaves are gone from my money tree with this project. :eeek:

I did talk to Greg a lot about this cam and he feels that with a milder lift, but slightly longer duration, the idle will be fine. As far as the cam bearings go, I saved hundreds of engines for Cadillac when I was in the dealership service department by installing cam bearings. To me, doing an overhaul without them just isn't a complete job. Did I enjoy spending the extra money, NO, that I can assure you. But as Al from CT said, he now wishes that he had done it to his.

But again, no offense taken and these are just our opinions.

 

[Trick6]

Paul:
I have another engine on the floor in my garage. If I build it, I will definitly install cam bearings. No questions. Without the cam bearings, you are limited to a cam duration and lift configuration before the block cam location deteriorates under the loads of the valve train geometry. The Searcher MAn is correct to remind us that the stock PI cam developed 150 HP (at the flywheel)without the cam bearings. Right now I have developed 118 HP at t he rear wheels. Add a modest 15% (some add 18%, Ive got about 135 HP at the flywheel without the PI. Now it is said that the PI, fuel injection (FI) to us, does not add alot of HP. What the mordern fuel injection does is optimizes the AFR and timing operations relationship which I am sure adds HP overall. The amount of HP gained will differ form motor to motor, so it is never figured as a constant. But a HP gain non the least. The guys with tubos and superchargers assisting their FI are getting 190 plus HP a the rear wheels with a stock or mild cam. I rode in one of these beasts (Rick Patton's SCI) and it is incredible. https://topshamautoparts.com/tr6/schrgr3.htm click here and go to Supercharger Video, crank up the speakers and enjoy. Click here for the dyno session. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rNe6qAxVFg
Wasn't that fun. 190 HP and still tuning.
This car is very smooth and then Rick pushes the little red button. And POW........

 

[Brosky]

Al,

I originally wanted to go with the PI cam profile and Greg (BPNW) talked me out of it. He said that the power curve was flat and the old technology was covered by the higher compression and PI.

OK, I said, I'll have the compression and headers and good ignition and triple carbs. He said, you're getting the TH5 for a great street cam and forget the other one(s). With your mods, you'll get the max out of the engine and still enjoy driving it daily.

And I have seen (and heard)_the video.

 

[swift6]

SearcherMan

The 150hp PI cars were also thought to have a rather optimistic horsepower rating as well as horrible idle characteristics. So I'm not so sure that the CP cam would be the "ideal" cam. Camshaft design has come a long way since these cars were new so we may as well take advantage of it.

No, the factory didn't see the need for cam bearings in the the six cylinder blocks. But they also didn't plan on these cars being around this long. The journals for the cam in the block were thought to be sacrificial not eternal.

As far as value and/or investment... Triumphs tend to be owned by enthusiasts not investors. Sure there are a couple of Triumphs out there that could be worth some extravagant amount to the right buyer, but the market value is often below what we put into these cars just to keep them enjoyable. Get used to it. Go enjoy your car.

Your car IS a Triumph, not a Jaguar or a Healey. Concentrating on how much you have in the car vs. how much it is worth will impede your enjoyment of it. Which you should be doing for what it is, not what you wish it would be. If it helps, assign a $ value to each time you drive your Triumph. Keep track of it and then subtract that amount from what you have spent on it. You may be suprised how much enjoying your Triumph just might make it worth the expense.

regards,

 

[hondo402000]

I Like it and when your done can you post every thing you did so I can do mine too?

Hondo
charlotte

 

[RonMacPherson]

Yah, BUT!

I like to look at it as a learning experience. We can all learn(and admire) by seeing what was done and the finished product of the machine shop.

We know it isn't a Jag, Healey,Daimler, etc.... But it's OUR car, our pride and joy, our playtoy.


Look at the HotRod folks and the venerable Ford Flathead.

Some of the same design "deficiencies". The crank does not have the proper support, too few mains, and has a tendency to not last if revved for extended lengths of time. Yet, there has grown a strong support group around these engines. They were plain ol' bread and butter engines, but what is done to them know is current and brings them really up to date.

Cranks, main bearing saddles and 4 bolt caps, blowers, along with cylinder head modifications that make the ol' boat anchor quite an example of what can be done to better the performance of an engine. Kinda like making the silk purse out of the sow's ear.

So, I for one, enjoy seeing what is, and can be done, to better build these engines...

 

[hondo402000]

in order to cut machining cost if several guy sent their blocks and heads to the same place at the same time maybe we could get a better deal, set up once do several blocks???

 

[Brosky]

Hondo,

The biggest problem with any shop is time management and making a reasonable hourly rate of return for the investment in capital equipment.

The line boring machine costs over $50,000 without any maintenance.

The process to just under 12 hours to do my block, because each journal could only be cut at 0.010" at time and you cannot stop once you start. The process goes until finished with the machinist standing right there, NOT doing anything else.

You can do the math, but that's not a very profitable job when you charge $450 labor.

 

[TheSearcherMan]

The block being the bearing surface is called a "parent material" bearing. In 2007, Harley Davidson eliminated 2, what I call heavy duty bearings, one roller, and one ball, that the camshafts in the 96 CU Twin Cam engine rode on, and went to the "parent material" bearing set up. The "partent material" in the Harley Engine? Aluminum. I started my working life at a Chevrolet dealer in March of 1972, as a mechanic on commission. I switched to another type of mechanical work because I wasn't going to let GM tell me how much they were going to pay to fix their screw ups. One of the problems these days is most people don't realize how corrupt service work is, don't have a clue. Also, I think its time we, the owners let a couple of the parts suppliers know we ain't putting up with their lack of quality control. Advertising money causes quality control complaints to go out the window. Just in the last 10 days, I ordered a parts kit you mite say from one supplier, one part was left out, so I ordered 2 of the left out parts from another supplier, they don't fit, so I 2nd day air 2 more form another supplier, so I'd have them for the weekend, they didn't get here cause of their screw up. People should know who these suppliers are. They are not doing us a favor, look at the prices of parts. They want us to think they are doing all of us a big favor, well, we are the customer and its our money. I know of many parts that don't work from my restoration. BPN is the best supplier, wish they had everything and were not 3000 miles away. If you read this, Paul, whose lifters are you using?

 

[Brosky]

Searcher,

I am using the lifters from BPNW, which he sells to several well know suppliers previously mentioned above.