TR2/3/3A Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

[CJD]

That's what the manual says, but I also figure it will keep it from ever coming off too.

 

[DavidApp]

This is the seal he mentioned in the video.


David

https://www.malpasonline.co.uk/itm/Water-Pump-Seals/Water-Pump-Seal/40075

 

[TR3driver]

The manual also says that the impeller must be a tight fit on the shaft; and replaced if the interference fit is lost.

If you don't have a copy of the factory workshop manual, you can download a PDF here https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2H2NJt34OffYWZiN2VlZGMtNTkxMi00NGUzLWE4NzMtMGRkODRkYzU3MDU1
I rescanned and retouched those two pages, hopefully the photos are a bit clearer.

Another possible seal source is https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ferguson-TEA20_Water-Pump-Seal_825374M1.html
I didn't get a chance before, but perhaps this summer I can try using that seal in an original TR3 water pump. (Both the seal that eventually came in, and the water pump core are some 2500 miles away from my home, but I plan to visit there in a couple of months. But last summer I wound up in the hospital for congestive heart failure and didn't get everything done that I had hoped to do.)

 

[CJD]

I think most of my issues is that I have been dealing with 6 decades of OEM and reproduction pumps. I have seen different shaft sizes, bearing sizes, and seal thicknesses. At this point it is impossible to tell if you have an OEM or an old repro in your hand. The shaft and bearing face on the housing are the first surfaces to corrode. My personal final conclusion is it is simply not worth the effort to rebuild these pumps. Until they are NLA, it's just too easy to pick up a new one that is guaranteed to work. I have come to the same conclusion with brake slave cylinders and calipers...if I can buy them, it is not worth my time and risk to rebuild.

 

[Got_All_4]

here we go. The shaft easily cleaned up. Must be very soft metal. Went from 5/8 to .610. Going to make bushing for the pulley tomorrow. My friend thought I should use a roll pin too instead of a keyway. I voiced my concern that I don't have enough room under the apron to align and tap in a pin. Decided to turn it between centers and didn't want to risk braking the pump. Got a link to a cool why to cut a keyway in a lathe. Wish I would have researched this last year and I wouldn't be making this post.

 

[Got_All_4]

Here is the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR1pvQYFFck

 

[TR3driver]

That's a good idea, using a ground down parting tool turned sideways. When I did it a few years back, I ground a tool from a piece of round HSS and it didn't work as well. But the keyway was in "mystery" steel (from the scrapbox), so that might have been why it didn't cut so easily.

 

[DavidApp]

My new pump and pulley arrived today, the pump is Lucas. Fortunately no electricity involved in the pump. It is the 5 vane pump.

Noticed several things right off.
1) The thread that secures the pulley is 1/2" not 3/8" like the old one. The Nut, Washer and Key were included with the pump. Also a gasket. The nut and washer I ordered from TRF was for the old size thread.

2) The casting has been machined away to clear the pulley unlike the other supplier's pump that had to be filed to clear. I do not see a circlip grove to hold the outer bearing. A copper washer and a thin washer were included in the pump box.

3) The supplied key is a bit lose in the shaft and very tight in the pulley. Loctite on the key?

David

 

[Geo Hahn]

My new pump and pulley arrived today, the pump is Lucas...

What vendor sells this pump? Thanks.

 

[DavidApp]

TRF.

It is their 5 vane pump.

Looks well machined and does not suffer from the casting interference on the pulley.

David

 

[CJD]

Hey David,

You may want to check the fit before final installation. I bought the TRF last year and the pump was machined out of phase. The mounting holes are designed to be slightly different, i.e. not exactly 120 degrees apart. When lined up using the provided holes, my pump was turned about 1/3 of a turn off where it should be. I had to widen the holes by about 1/8" with a drill press, and then it would fit in any orientation...including the correct one. Not saying this is still a problem, but better to take care of it prior to mounting the pulley and gooping the gasket if it is!?!

 

[DavidApp]

Thank you John

I did have to file the holes a little to get it to fit. Made sure the weep hole was down and the grease nipple lump in the casting in the 11.00 position.

I am going to find a 1/8" key and see if I can get a better fit than they have on the supplied one.

I have been trying out fan belts while I am in the area. I have an alternator fitted so the belt length may be different to a generator car.

The TR24379 belt by Gates Green stripe fits but there is very little clearance to get the belt on. I did have to do a little work on the bracket so that the alternator would swing over to touch the block. That belt sits a little low in the pulley.

I am picking up a BX36 belt in the morning. That should sit higher as it is 3/4" wide instead of 17mm.

David

 

[TR3driver]

Those Gates belts were sure better than nothing, but don't fit all that well even with a generator. I found a Goodyear 24377 fits better, with either alternator or generator (assuming you used the stock size pulley on your alternator)

 

[DavidApp]

Hello Randall

When I look up Goodyear 24377 I come up with a narrower longer belt.
https://www.amazon.ca/24377-Goodyear-Gatorback-V-Belt/dp/B000EI6HIC
Or is this just Amazon jumping to conclusions?
Maybe they have it listed incorrectly.

I did come across TR28386
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...074ac/gates-green-stripe-belt/tr28386/4339654

The BX 36 was too narrow.

David

 

[TR3driver]

I'm not sure what's up with that Amazon listing, but it doesn't seem to match what I have. They are just a tad narrower than the Gates belts, and ride lower in the pulley vee. Eventually might wear until they hit the bottom, but so far that's not been an issue for me.

 

[DavidApp]

Bought a 1/8" x 5/8" key. It was a perfect fit in the shaft but too tight in the pulley. A bit of careful filing got it to fit the pulley. I only filed the exposed portion of the key and was careful to take the same off both sides. Had to take a little off the top as well.
Used loctite on the key to stop it moving as I assembled the pulley. It did not need anything to help the fit.
The pulley slid on with a little pushing. There is no play or movement on the key that I can feel.

David

 

[CJD]

Making headway...I like to hear it!

 

[DavidApp]

I feel much better about the way everything went together on this pump.

Having seen the threaded part sheared off a TR3 pump over the weekend I had a second look at my setup.

Glad I did because I found several things that were not correct.

David

 

[TR3driver]

Yes, it is a high-def copy of a copy of a copy of a 30-year-old VHS tape. Guess we're lucky it wasn't in BetaMax.

The tech session (as the saying goes) 'is in the mail'.

Ok, sorry it took me so long to follow through on this. Could certainly be better, but as someone once said, "Better is the enemy of Good".
[video]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1g0idGZmPedmB3IQLuhMRmuG64S_AUNLF[/video]

I've got an original (I think) pump apart on the bench at the moment, maybe I can take a few photos later on.

(Hmm, Google still says they are "processing" the video. Better download it while you can, in case they again decide it somehow violates their TOS.)

 

[Got_All_4]

Thanks Randal. Good info in there. Now I got to figure out how to download it. Can i do it directly to a memory stick? Not much space left in my computer.
First time I've been on the Forum for weeks. Lots of personal stuff going on. Going to try this weekend to cut the key way into the shaft without taking it apart. Going to see how it chucks up into the Bridgeport vice. May have to make a fixture and bolt it to it. Then use a 1/8th inch end mill to slowly shave off a few thousandths at a time. Not using a wood drift key going straight through to the end. I'm thinking the washer will keep it in place. Haven't done the bushing yet but hope to get to it this week.