TR2/3/3A Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

[Geo Hahn]

Okay - I set up a primitive copy arrangement with the VCR, TV and my digital camera. Will be in two parts due to a 30 minute limitation. It has the production values of a 1959 stag film but at least captures the needed details.

Upload to YouTube is very slow - but may be published later today.

 

[Got_All_4]

Cool idea. I've even heard commercials to send your VHS, super 8 films etc to get put on CDs or memory sticks. Can't give you the company names but know they exists so of course Google it.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I got a copy made - but discovered two things -- 1) it takes ages to load a 30-minute video to YouTube with my DSL connection (10-12 hours) and 2) I need some sort of YouTube account to upload a vide longer than 15 minutes.

I can redo it as a 4-parter and also do the control head rebuild which is on the same tape.

 

[TR3driver]

How big did the file wind up? DSL should be faster than that!

Do you have the tools to divide the video? FFMPEG works great and is free; but the command line interface can be daunting. It can also be used to increase compression, adjust audio levels, etc. I find that even the default compression levels (which seem to work very well) can often cut the size of downloaded videos by 50% or more.
https://www.ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg.html

 

[bobhustead]

If your pulley is stuck on the shaft, it is probably because the 3mm woodruff key has widened one side of the 1/8 groove in the pulley and the key is in a parallel but incomplete groove. When you pull on the shaft you are probably simply driving the key against the end of the new groove in the pulley. You really cannot practically fix this. Get a new pump and pulley and have a MACHINIST cut a proper width key slot in the new shaft.
Bob

 

[Geo Hahn]

How big did the file wind up?

3.03GB and 3.58GB. Those are MTS files which are simply what my still camera produces.

I looked at the link you provided -- 'daunting' is an apt description in my case.

I have an old 8GB SD card that I have put the 2 files on -- if you want to have a copy and possibly take a crack at making them public I'll mail it to you.

 

[TR3driver]

Hmm, I'm guessing that something was trying to transcode the MTS format (into FLV or MP4) and being slow about it.

Anyway, sure, I'm willing to help if you want. I think my old SD card reader still works and I've got a few Gb left on my Google Drive. (Dunno if they'll let me create another one, but I assume that's an alternative as well.)

 

[Geo Hahn]

Yes, it is a high-def copy of a copy of a copy of a 30-year-old VHS tape. Guess we're lucky it wasn't in BetaMax.

The tech session (as the saying goes) 'is in the mail'.

 

[DavidApp]

Some thoughts on the water pump issue.
Went on a drive yesterday with a group of LBCs. Unfortunately mine was not part of the group yet.

The TR3 in the group had a water pump failure. The threaded extension on the pump shaft sheared off and the pulley fell off. It was a pump that was relatively new fitted by someone who knows the car well.

When I got home I thought I need to check my new pump while the motor is still very accessible.

I think the pulley is the original one or at least it is the one that came with the car. The pump is a 5 vane pump never run. I ran a dial indicator on the pulley and noticed about 0.020" run out.
Took the nut off and saw that the washer that I had used was distorted because the washer should have been a special thick washer not a standard washer that fits the screw thread on the shaft. The shaft diameter is 5/8" and the screw is 5/16". There is also an undercut at the bottom of the thread on the new pump that is not on my origonal pump That would reduce the strength of the thread.
The key was a little lose in the pulley but tight in the shaft. Metric key in a standard pulley key way.
The Pulley was a few thousandths lose on the shaft. That may be because I eased it down to fit the pulley but I do not remember as it has been a while since I did that. I could wobble the pulley a little with the nut lose.

I plan to order a new pump and pay a lot more attention to fitting the pulley to the shaft. Also to the key fit in both the shaft and pulley. Probable get a standard key and fit it to the shaft. Then find a thick washer so that the pulley is clamped to the shaft more securely.
Anyone thought about drilling out the end of the shaft and threading it so that a screw could be used instead of the nut?

David

 

[CJD]

I’ve had enough close calls with high speed pulleys and worn shafts. Best to install a new pulley on a new pump...both from the same dealer. No more fuss...no more worries. If it comes apart use the term “product reliabilty” on the phone call to get it replaced for free. A 60 year old pulley on an old shaft and expect it to live.

 

[sp53]

I have been dealing with those pulleys and pumps for 45 years. I suggest going along with what John maintains. Back in the day with the old pulleys, they fit very tight and one trick I learned the hard way was to keep the belt a little lose. The old pumps gave some warning and would wobble before they failed, but it looks like the newer stuff breaks. Heck those things are really spinning.

 

[TR3driver]

My thinking is what do I have to loose.

Just think about where that great big, heavy pulley is going to go if it comes off the shaft. I was lucky, the guard on the electric fan caught it with no further damage. Would have been much more "interesting" with the original mechanical fan!

I did try drilling and tapping a hole for a bolt to retain the pulley. I think it would have worked, except that the shaft was worn undersize so even a new pulley did not fit tightly. And as I said before, that joint has to go together tight even before installing the retaining nut. Even without the belt being too tight, just the force to turn the pulley at higher rpm is going to be enough to make the joint flex if there is any give at all. And if it flexes, the pulley will fret against the shaft and wear both of them out over time, until something breaks.

If you can push the pulley into place with your fingers (even without the key), than it IS going to fail eventually.

 

[DavidApp]

There is a lot of overhang on the pulley.

I am ordering a new pump, pulley, washer and nut from the same supplier. Will carry the old (never used pump) as a traveling spare.

If you bolt the pump to the motor before you attach the pulley it can be hard to get a tight fitting pulley on the shaft. As the bolts will not go past the pulley. I plan to insert the bolts in the pump housing then fit the pulley. That way I will have the impeller to hold on to as I get the pulley on the shaft.
Some bearing loctite on the shaft may help.

David

Just think about where that great big, heavy pulley is going to go if it comes off the shaft. I was lucky, the guard on the electric fan caught it with no further damage. Would have been much more "interesting" with the original mechanical fan!

I did try drilling and tapping a hole for a bolt to retain the pulley. I think it would have worked, except that the shaft was worn undersize so even a new pulley did not fit tightly. And as I said before, that joint has to go together tight even before installing the retaining nut. Even without the belt being too tight, just the force to turn the pulley at higher rpm is going to be enough to make the joint flex if there is any give at all. And if it flexes, the pulley will fret against the shaft and wear both of them out over time, until something breaks.

If you can push the pulley into place with your fingers (even without the key), than it IS going to fail eventually.

 

[DavidApp]

As an aside to this issue I noticed that I could not get my fan belt off the pulleys with the amount of adjustment allowed by the alternator. I had to remove the alternator to get the belt off.
I am using the wide belt marked TR24379 Green stripe 17A0960. It is 17 mm wide and 978 mm circumference. I had fitted this to the motor when it was on the stand. The motor is in the frame now and I can see that I have very little room to adjust the belt tension as the RHD steering tube bracket is in the way. I think that I will check on a longer belt TR24400 and remove the bracket as I do not think that I will be converting to RHD.

David

 

[TR3driver]

As the bolts will not go past the pulley. I plan to insert the bolts in the pump housing then fit the pulley.

Should be only one bolt; the other two holes took studs originally. Make sure you get the right hole; the pump only fits one way.

Years ago, Moss sold an aftermarket pump with the pulley permanently attached, so I converted to a stud (also supplied by Moss) for the third hole as well. I liked that setup enough to move it to my current TR3, even though I now use a factory style pump with the removable pulley. The stud is the same as the rocker pedestal studs, Moss 328-890.

The only caveat is that there isn't enough room to install the nuts with the pump fully in place. So you need to get all 2 or 3 started with the pump hanging out a bit. Then you can start tightening them up.

FWIW, here's a video I just found that might be entertaining.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOO22eU8pnQ

 

[DavidApp]

Hello Randall

Interesting video.

The original pump on my TR had a bad bearing and when I tried to disassemble it I ran into the circlip behind the bearings that prevents the shaft being pressed out. Not sure if there is a non destructive way of getting it apart.

David

 

[TR3driver]

The original pump on my TR had a bad bearing and when I tried to disassemble it I ran into the circlip behind the bearings that prevents the shaft being pressed out. Not sure if there is a non destructive way of getting it apart.

FWIW, the workshop manual shows pressing the impeller off the shaft first, then says to "tap" out the spindle and bearings as an assembly.

 

[DavidApp]

I have the vice now all I need is the Churchill tool.
Excuse the messy bench. The vice has a quick release lever that allows you to open and close it fully without having to wind the handle.

May try to get it off the shaft. I think I would pin it if I was going to reuse it.

David

 

[CJD]

When I reinstall the impeller I solder it to the shaft per the manual. Again...I’ve had no luck with the currently available seals.

 

[DavidApp]

Hello John

Is the solder intended to seal the shaft to impeller joint?

David