TR2/3/3A TR3 Engine Suggestion Request

[Brooklands]

Here is my quandary.

The engine in my TR3B is not the original engine. It is a newer TR4 engine including some emission controls not found on a TR3B, and it has Zenith Carbs instead of the original SU's.

The dealer who sold me the car offered to swap out the valve cover, manifold, and carbs from either a true TR3B engine or from one of the TR4's he has if I want to make the engine look more authentic. It is a nice offer, but I do not have the expertise to decide what other parts would be needed, or if this will even work. And my mechanical incompetence would mean I probably would have to hire a pro do most of this work. Since my motor seems to be pretty strong right now and is starting easily, I am a bit leery of making the change and possibly losing the spring driving season while I got the old parts off of Fagin and drove to CT to swap parts.

He was even willing to swap engines with the TR3B he has coming in if it is truly a TR3B, but that would probably be more time off the road than I want to consider.

What are your suggestions? Should I swap parts, or just continue driving the car as is right now? Help...

 

[Andrew Mace]

Tough call, since the 3B is right up there with the TR250 in terms of numbers-matching, purists-will-pay value. Exactly how much money you "lose" by not having the original engine, I can't say, but I'm not sure it's much more than what you might spend just to get a "look" that still isn't numbers-correct.

Besides, unless that other "true TR3B" is a balled-up wreck of a parts car, it would be a shame to take away ITS presumably numbers-matching bits, especially the engine block!

I'm also willing to pretty much guarantee that 90-95% of TR owners wouldn't know the difference even after you pointed it out to them, and it only really matters at a judged VTR or TRA Concours.

I'd enjoy the car as-is, at what's likely to be at least 95% of its value were it to have the original engine. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/driving.gif

Side note: Years ago, a local club member had a very, very late TR3A, all original, down to the original engine. That engine just happened to be a TSF-serial number block, which means it was still a correct 1991cc engine, but intended for the earliest TR3B. Yours is not quite the same situation, but...

 

[NutmegCT]

Dave - what's your long-term goal?

Others have much more thought and experience in the issue than me, but how "authentic" do you want Fagin to be? Keeping in mind that in the TR world, there's always a bit of +/- tolerance to that word authentic. Unless you have photos taken as it rolled off the assembly line, for instance.

And of course, if it ain't broke ....

Tom

 

[TR3driver]

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Personally, I'd much rather drive the car than point to how "correct" it is (or isn't). And having to rely on someone else to do the job right would reinforce that decision.

 

[Brooklands]

Thanks,
So far everyone is leaning the same way I have been. I am not planning to make Fagin into a judged show car, and I did not make the purchase as an investment. If you disagree with this plan for any reason, I hope you will chime in to give me more reason to be confused... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Maybe another option would be to put in a valve cover without the breather tube to the air cleaners and switch the air cleaners. Would that be a problem for any reason?

 

[Geo Hahn]

The parts you mention (which I think are almost correct) are pretty straight forward to swap.

The 'emission controls' on a TR4 were at most just a tube/hose runing from the valve cover to the air cleaners so the replacement valve cover would take care of that (2 nuts & possibly a new valve cover gasket) as the SU carbs will need the earlier air cleaners.

The manifold is a bit more involved (6 nuts, 2 of them a little harder to get at). Maybe a new gasket though likely the old one will be fine.

The carb linkage (I think) should mate up just fine in the Stromberg to SU swap but the choke cable will change location and possibly need to be shorter.

In addition to what you mentioned, the 3B would have had a crankcase ventilation tube (aka breather pipe). I think you would want this with the later valve cover. This can be added (there is a plug there on a late-TR4 block). I have retro-fitted one with the engine in place but it is a fiddly job (dremel the edge of the plug to weaken it, pierce it then pry it out).

Maybe I've missed something and someone will add to the to-do list.

What could go wrong? Well broken studs & leaky carbs are possible but not the end of the world. There would also likely be some smaller bit that have to obtained or fabricated (e.g. vacuum advance tube connection).

So it may come down to how important it is to you. If you could con someone into helping you (or at least guiding you) the task is not difficult in my opinion.

Also just my opinion, but if it was my car I would do it. TR3Bs are uncommon enough and the differences noticeable enough that it would always bug me if I left it as is. But that's just me.

 

[Harry_Ward]

Dave,

My Opinion for what it's worth... If it starts, runs well, and causes no worry in it's current configuration don't mess with it.

I also don't know who the dealer is but I always have to question these heartfelt offers. What I think you should find out is why the dealer wants to trade and or swap out your engine and or carb bits? Might he have a 4 that needs a matching motor? If so it might be worth more than what he's offering?

 

[Brooklands]

Harry,
I just want to clear up that the dealer was in my homeroom from 3rd through 9th grades, and we graduated in the same high school class. He has even offered for me to go with him to a car show in Greenwich CT last fall driving one of his Morgan's.

I don't think he has other motives but t be sure I am happy with the purchase...

 

[Harry_Ward]

Thanks Dave, good to know as it restores my faith. If it's the Greenwich Concours show I'm thinking about it's definitely worth the ride!

 

[Brooklands]

I really think I may disappoint him if I don't accept his offer as he keeps inviting my with and me to visit and see his collection. He did a lot for me in setting up the transaction, and although I doubt he was close to losing any money, I am pretty sure I get a better than normal deal from him. I would have enjoyed the Greenwich Concours for sure, and he also keeps inviting me to meet him at various vintage races where he runs mostly a Mallock and a Lotus Super 7. He did not deal in lots of Triumphs in the past, so I think the fact that the TR3B had the wrong engine slipped by him, and now he is trying to make up for his oversight.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Dave,

I'm restoring a flooded TR3A (as you may have seen my earlier posts) and am running into similiar issues related to what is cost effective/available vs original (since much of the car needed replaced or was missing). I'm opting towards anything that improves performance, and not worrying too much about being exactly authentic. Like stated earlier, very few will know the difference -and no body will suspect the engine swap as you are driving past them.

Jer

 

[Banjo]

I'm building a 54 TR2. I have the original low-port head, and 2 bolt carb intake, but I don't have the original engine block, or carbs themselves. Thus, I'm going to use the engine from a TR4A I parted out with the TR2 valve cover , and TR3 SU carbs (for looks).
All good to me.
I'll keep what original stuff I have, and let the next owner have at it when I'm done having fun.
Shows are fun. To heck with the trophies, I'm there to enjoy the people and thier cars. and I'd rather have a car to take, than sit on it because some numbers don't match.

 

[TR3driver]

Just curious, Banjo, how do you plan to hook your 4-bolt carbs to the 2-bolt manifold ?

BTW, TS39781LO was wearing an early TR3 block (TS11xxx) with a later TR3A head, carbs & manifolds; TR4A clutch, TR6 gearbox, TR3 shift cover, TR4 OD ... and I enjoyed it a great deal. Also had the engine compartment painted flat black and the body a color that Triumph never dreamed of (dark metallic green with a black stripe off-center over the top). Plus a few other changes.

Purists might shudder, but it was my car and it pleased me. IMO that is what's important. Your car should please you.

 

[AweMan]

Dave,

I'm restoring a flooded TR3A (as you may have seen my earlier posts) and am running into similiar issues related to what is cost effective/available vs original (since much of the car needed replaced or was missing). I'm opting towards anything that improves performance, and not worrying too much about being exactly authentic. Like stated earlier, very few will know the difference -and no body will suspect the engine swap as you are driving past them.

Jer

My sentiments exactly, thats why I`m going with a NON triumph color and My own concauction of leather bits for interior. I too, don`t give a hoot about concourse or trophies. I just want my Tr to look sharp, be presentable and functional.

 

[NickMorgan]

Dave,
It is obviously entirely up to you what you do with your car, but ... as you have asked our advice!!
I always like to have a car fitted with the correct parts, because that makes life so much easier when ordering replacements in the future. I have bought modified cars in the past and then had real trouble when I have tried to buy a new gasket or small item, because I am not entirely sure of the origin of the item on the car.
The dealer sounds like a really trustworthy guy, so I am sure he only has your best interests at heart.
If he was to change the carburettors, rocker cover, etc it shouldn't take him more than a day to do so.
The only risk is that the parts he fits may not be in as good condition as the parts that are on the car just now.
Let us know how you get on.
Nick

 

[Brosky]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Shows are fun. To heck with the trophies, I'm there to enjoy the people and their cars. and I'd rather have a car to take, than sit on it because some numbers don't match. [/QUOTE]

I feel the same way. I got a lot of criticism for removing certain things and doing this or that with the red color of the head, tri-carbs, etc., but when the voting is done, I still win something, including a lot of First places.

I will never enter a Concours event because that's not what my car is. For those who take the time and effort, it's great, but not for me.

Shows are great events to meet people and have a good time. Anything else won is a bonus. This past summer, I enjoyed meeting Greenie and his wife and all of my friends from the other clubs more than looking at any trophy of framed piece of paper all winter.

 

[NutmegCT]

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Paul - well said. I sure hope to do the same this summer, now that TeeYah is *very* drivable.

Tom