Help to the newbie - Diff Whine

[MoHealey]

Just brought my first big Healey home. 63 BJ7 - older frame off resto. Have spent the last few days engaged in an initial shakedown. Car has been rarely driven for several years. I am noticing an audible whine (not deafening, but it's there) from the rear end, seems to be same (other than pitch) at any speed. Can a member of this learned panel help level-set me on what is "normal"? Totally silent?
Have completed the requisite fluid changes; no noticeable leaks; no other metallic nastiness that I can hear....
Any help appreciated.

 

[Randy Forbes]

They're not totally silent, but there shouldn't be so much whine as to cause concern. Now 1st gear on the other hand, that's a growler!

I'd recommend obtaining something along the lines of a "Chassis Ear" that allows you to place several (up to six) michrophones under the car, and then listening to their individual channels while on a test drive. This would enable you to determine if the source of the whine is the pinion bearing, "global" ring & pinion, left or right differential carrier bearing or a left or right wheel bearing.

While not completely foolproof, it will help to determine specifically where the noise is originating from, and a future repair can be based on that information.

 

[MoHealey]

Thanks!
Sounds like a good idea. Any suggestions as to where such a listening device can be obtained?

 

[Randy Forbes]

Here's an inexpensive one (I buy from these people all the time) https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/steelman-chassisear-06600-p-14187.aspx

The one I use is "wireless" and while certainly more expensive, it's a lot easier (and safer?) to use: https://www.tooldesk.com/automotive/STL97202-Wireless-ChassisEar-by-Steelman-Chassis-Ear.aspx Each transmitter has a LARGE magnet, AND velcro straps to keep them secure; I've never lost one :wink:

 

[HEALEYJAG]

How about letting another Healey owner drive your car...he will be able to tell U immediately if this is normal with no expense or time wasted.

Pete

 

[Randy Forbes]

How about letting another Healey owner drive your car...he will be able to tell U immediately if this is normal with no expense or time wasted.

Pete

Whether or not you consider it a waste of time and money, they are valuable diagnostic tools, and have been a tremendous help tracking down problems on several cars, three (3) of my own included.

Relying on a second individual is not required, and they can often be unreliable and inconvenient (to both parties involved).

Many plusses, and I don't see any negatives with my suggestion.

 

[HEALEYJAG]

Randy:

The response was not made to be a negative on your excellent recomendation. My intent was to to get a simple opinion on whether there needs to be more diagnostic tests run.

With the test he will still have to decide if this is "NORMAL" or not.. and being a newbie may still not be able to decide if there is a problem.

Warmest Regards:

Pete

 

[MoHealey]

Oil on the wheel and in LR wheel well now confirms what I probably didn't want to admit. I see a couple of posts with tips for bearing/seal repair. Time to get on with it. Now I have to find the "monster socket"

Thanks for the help.

 

[Michael Oritt]

Mohealey--

Noise from incorrect ring and pinion lash setting and leakage from a bad seal or worn stub axle(s) are two different problems, though they both might co-exist.

If the problem is only diff noise you should have the ring and pinion set up properly.

If esp. after shutdown you are seeing diff oil running through the rear brake(s)and sitting junder the contact patch onto the floor via the inside of the wheel/tire the problem is a bad lip seal(s) which may also require installing a speedi-sleeve in addition to the seal if there is corrosion on the end of the stub axle.

 

[MoHealey]

Sound counsel. Understood and thanks.
Ok, so I'm thinking the ring/pinion setup is probably over my head. Would you advise I fix the leak and drive on? I know I'm asking a question that can't really be answered, but I can live with the whine if failure is not inevitable. Reasonably adept - 3 MG's over 30 years - but I don't have a cache of special tools, and have never attempted such a rebuild. Send it to a pro?

 

[Michael Oritt]

Mo--

A competent shop can set up your diff for you for probably less than $100.00-$200.00 assuming you bring in the third member removed, though you should first bring them the car so they can drive it up and down through the gears intact and thus have a chance to assess the noise level and where it might be coming from. They might even say to just leave it alone and drive it.

Assuming they tell you to pull out the third member and bring it in for setup when you do you may see that the gears on the ring and pinion are either worn to the point of sharpness on the points (not good) or that there is unevenness on the front or back sides of the ring or pinion gears--you'll see an obvious scuffing on the faces--also not good. At this point you may want to consider finding a replacement R& P gear as the old one will not heal but rather will only get worse.
All this said R& P's seldom go out of adjustment quickly unless a fastener has loosened, a shim has broken, etc.

Now let's assume that the shop has either told you to ignore the noise or they have fixed it and we are now gpoing to start talking about the leak that is coming past the lip seal and is allowing diff oil to pass by the lip seal and into the brake drum, and eventually run down the inside of the wheel/tire and puddle under the tread:

This leak is probably due to the lip seal's having deteriorated or hardened up, or it may also be due to corrosion on the end of the stub axle that is ruining the integrity of the lip seal or both.

In either remove the axle shaft (removing the big nut)and then press out the beaaring and finally pry out the lip seal itself (You'll probably destroy the lip seal in the process but let's assume it is already defective so this is no matter.

After examining the bearing itself to make sure it has not become chewed upand the lip seal rubber for condition it may be clear to you that the seal is no good and needs to be replaced--the number of the seal should be photo-etched on the outer face of the seal. At the same time examine the condition of the end of the stub axle and see if it is rusted, pitted or corroded. If not then just replacing the lip seal should be enough. If there is pitting,etc on the bearing surface of the axle stub where the seal rotates then you will want to fit a speedi-sleeve (redi=sleeve) and the appropriate part number is usually marked on the box of the lip seal,

Installing the speedi-sleeve (about $50.00) is a separate operation and since it may turn out not to be necessary why don't we wait to see what is your assessment of the condition of the stub axle and if need be we will talk about this in another addition to this string--frankly my hand is getting sore but it is not too difficult, just time consuming.

BTW TRW and Chicago Rawhide are good brands for all these parts and are radily available at most parts houses. So, come back when you have 1) dealt with the ring and pinion prob;em and 2) assessed whether you will need to do anything more than install a new lip seal.

I am going to watch the World's Series and root root root for the Yankee's!

 

[Michael Oritt]

MO--

After rooting in vain for the Yankees I am ready to return to the task at hand.

So your first job was to evaluate the condition of the R & P gears themselves. They should not be too sharp and I can only compare your evaluation process to that used when looking at the splines on your wire wheels: The shoulders on the splines should not be too sharp. If they are very sharp to the touch (as w/ the splines on wire wheels) that is an indication they splines are worn. Also the scuffing on front and back faces should be more or less even.

So let's assume that the fellow who is going to set up the R & P says bring it in and he installs it and all is fine and quiet. Now we can move along to the leaky axle seals.

You will have to remove via a press the bearing and once you have it out check it out to make sure it is not chewed up with any binding, etc. Assuming no, now pry out the lip seal--don't worry that it will distort in the process. Once it is out see if the rubber is supple, that the spring is holding the rubber in place against the end of the stub axle, and that the stub axle is not pitted, rusted or corroded to the point where oil can leak past the lip and into the brake drum and down the inside of the wheel and tire and to the ground. This leak will be most noticeable sometime after you have come in from a run and are parked on concrete, or on cardboard where the oil will not disappear.

The lip seal may have a small bit of in/out play ((1/116" at most along the stub shaft and while the stub shaft bearing surface may not actually be a machined surface it is close enough for our purposes to qualify as one.

If the pitting, gouging, etc. is bad enough to allow for leaking then the solution is to install a speedi- or redi-sleeve, and the correct number that matches the bearing will be marked on the box for the lip seal. Chicago rawhide is a good source available at most all chain stores--estimated cost might be $50 per side.

The instructions re how to install the sleeve are simplicitity themselves so there is no sense in my paraphrasing them. (I did ruin one sleeve in the process). You will probably have to make an application tool as the one that comes with the part is not deep enough--I used a piece of PVC cap which was deep enough to go over the stub axle and pick up the flared edge of the sleeve. You may decide to remove the retainer springs or wheel cylinder to give more room--I did not and was working on an Elva Courier which is 8" and much tighter for room--I don't think you will have to. Just be sure to have your tools--side cutter, small cold chisel, small hammer, needlenose, etc. on hand and that you make the suggested small snip on the edge of the seal above the score line so that once the seal has been driven up onto the stub axle the excess material can be easily pulled off. When the hub is tightened into place it will be quite apparent that you have accomplished a lot and the hub will spin on the stub/sleeve in a very satisfactory mannner. The thought "New wife" or "husband's stitch" comes to mind....

I did this procedure to both L and R sides a few months back and I have no leakage of axle oil into the hub whatsoever. I have actually gotten used to having rear brakes on the car now--what a concept!!!

Let us know how it goes-it is well worth the time and expense.

 

[bob hughes]

MoHealey

I once had a 100/6 that had a definite whine in the diff, drove it for a few years like that until I located a used part and swapped it over.
If you are concerned you should be able to find some one to 'repair' it.
As a point of order you could get a friend to drive it while you listen and look through the rear seats that will at least prove that it is the diff and not the road noise from the tyres or the wheel bearings.
Just sorted my BJ7 rear axle seals out for the same problems that you have - oil in the drums. You need that big socket, I have a box spanner built for the job, and installed a home made locater in it to engage up the rear axle - helps keeping the box on the nut which is very thin. Remember right hand thread on right hand side, left hand thread on left hand side.

Bob

 

[MoHealey]

Michael, Bob -
Thanks a million for all of the detail.
Feeling more confident. New distributor in the MG now (gotta' keep at least one running), so time to get started.
I will keep you posted; which probably includes a stupid question or two along the way.
Thanks Again

 

[MoHealey]

Finally tackling this job. Seals are shot, but no evidence of pitting/corrosion on metal parts. Good news.
Looks like seals were installed in the reverse, and no bearing spacers installed at all. Is there any legitimate reason why the spacers would be omitted?
I can't think of one....

 

[MoHealey]

Success! Thanks for the help! Once I "engineered" the right tools for pressing the bearings, this was a pretty straightforward job.
Michael - You are right about the brakes. Slammed the pedal on my test drive, and nearly impaled myself on the trafficator!

PS - Found the bearing spacers stuck to the axle. Duh

 

[tahoe healey]

New Toyota up-grade?