TR2/3/3A Bearing failure

[TexasKnucklehead]

So my left outer front wheel bearing failed. All 12 roller bearings were inside the hub (between the inner and outer races) in a pile of grease. As you can see, the retainer was chewed up pretty good, but the 'detents' for the 12 rollers are still visible. The inner race is no longer round because of the hub rubbing against it with the weight of the car (no wonder it squeaked). The race seemed to be welded onto the stub axle but I was able to free it as follows.

A tie-rod separator tool can be placed between the loosely installed nut, backed by the D washer, and pulling against the inside of the race. I tightened the tool until it was about to shatter. With a dremel cut-off wheel I cut a relief slot at an angle to the center, about half way into the race. I smacked on the tool with a small sledge and occasionally loosened the tool and re-positioned it. I heated the race with a map gas torch until the tool was too hot to handle. I tried pounding a cold chisel into the cut slot. I used the cut-off wheel to cut farther into the race being careful not to cut into the stub axle. When I was almost cut through, the race made a loud bang as it moved slightly towards the nut. The tool could then pull off the race.

The old race will not slide onto the new or old stub axle, and I don't have a new one yet.

A local friend gave me a set of old (new/unused original stanpart) stub axles. How do I know if the axle caused the bearing to fail? What are your thoughts on replacing the axle? The inner bearing and race seem fine, but I plan to replace them. What are your thoughts on that? Anyone care to guess how long I was driving with no roller bearings? Thoughts?

 

[CJD]

This is the shot of the underside of a stub axle. The outer bearing inner race is designed to "walk" at a slow speed around the axle. That slow turning does eventually carve a ridge into the axle, and always at the bottom, since that's where the weight of the car is carried. The axle in this picture is shot, although from the top it looked perfect.

Once there is a ridge in the underside of the axle, then you can install new bearings, but the ridge prevents you from setting the proper end play of the bearings. The bearing race catches on the axle ridge before the end play is taken up in the setting process. I don't know if your stub axles have a ridge worn, but if it does it could be a factor. A loose bearing impacts the race hard on road bumps and that can brinnel them, eventually resulting in failure.

Long winded to say check the bottom of the axles. If there is any sign of a slight ridge on the skinny part where the outer bearing race rides, then definitely replace the axle.

Of course other things can cause bearing failure. Dirt, damage, cage fatigue, manufacturing flaw, etc. Unfortunately, it's not often possible to determine what went wrong once it disentigrates like yours did.

 

[TR3driver]

Argh, this laptop just deleted my post. Short version: I doubt the stub axle was the root cause, but for sure replace it anyway. It's been damaged by the bearing failure. I would also change the inner bearing, D washer & castellated nut. They might be usable, but are cheap insurance at this point. Check the hub too. If the outer races are not a tight fit, replace the hub. Also check there is enough meat left to hold the dust cap. I would probably check runout as well, but that might be overkill.

Assuming that is your TR3A, don't use the bearing clearance from the TR2/3 workshop manual. Check Practical Hints, or better yet the TR4 workshop manual. If you are replacing the felt, check the clearance before installing the felt, then mark the nut.

 

[sp53]

TexN I would be afraid to say how long you drove like that, so maybe 2 feet! That should have given some warning. Are you home or out on the road? Someone did post a while back on getting the stud axles off and it had something to do with pushing and not pulling, but it sounded like they are in there pretty good. I have not replaced one, but these cars are living longer and longer, so one day I probably will.
steve

 

[TR3driver]

Someone did post a while back on getting the stud axles off and it had something to do with pushing and not pulling, but it sounded like they are in there pretty good.

FWIW, the one I did popped off pretty easy. I stacked up pipe & flat washers, then used a regular nut (not the castle nut) on the threaded end. Pulled it up tight, then gave the other end a stout whack with a BFH. Since it's trash anyway, no need to worry about damaging threads.

 

[DavidApp]

Is it worth considering the uprated axles with shims between the bearings to give the clearance?
TRF has sets but a bit pricey.

David

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Thanks all -I really don't know what I'd do without this forum.
I plan to replace the stub axle, bearings, seals, D washer, nut and maybe even the cotter pin. I have new axles, but even if I didn't the total cost is under $50 for parts. I spent about $1000 to get home and felt like the failure could have cost significantly more. I was slowly losing control of one wheel, but had no idea.

As a curiosity, why does the axle have a flat spot on the threaded portion where the castellated nut sits?

Steve, read my post 'here we go again' for a little history. But in a nutshell, I stopped for dinner in Franklin Kentucky where we met a man who showed me a picture of his small mouth TR3 the same color as mine. Then we were on back roads heading to Springfield Tn when I thought I first heard a strange noise. We were driving along through what appeared to be fog from recent fireworks on nice curvy roads with small hills when I heard it again. Fireworks lit the sky and lots of other noises made the sound seem more unlikely. The noise was a quick series of notes like a Cardinal might make, only much less relaxing and amplified to the point of discern-ability over the normal road noise of a TR3 going 65mph. In the morning. I checked all the wheels and tried to shake them off the car to see if anything was loose.

On the hour drive to her brothers in Cumberland Furnace, the noise became obvious enough that Prudence asked if I heard it. At first I hoped it was just a top snap or something. Driving into his driveway the noise lasted the full length of the hill -maybe 100 feet. Pru exclaimed 'it's definitely on your side', and I noted 'for sure, from the rear wheel -I hope it's not a bearing'.

After lunch, we pulled the drum on the driver side and could see where the trailing edge of one and leading edge of the other brake shoes had been intermittently rubbing against the inside of the drum. We could also see where the couple high spots on the innermost edge of the drum was occasionally wearing at the bottom of the backing plate. Since all that was painted flat black during the restoration, the shinny metal witness marks were rather obvious. My 1959 does not have springs on posts to retain the shoes, and we figured the movement of the shoe was an issue that was corrected in later cars, but I might have to live with that annoying sound until it cleared itself. The passenger side showed the same signs of intermittent rubbing and we took a surface grinder to the offending surfaces.

The noise started again as soon as I started driving the car. I hoped it was because the grinding we had done or our disturbing it made it worse. When I got to the freeway, I pulled off at the first service station and felt the rear drum through the holes in the wheel. I could feel it was warm, but no so much I couldn't hold my finger on it. I called her brother and we discussed the thickness of the drum and how long it might take to wear the shoe down for the noise to stop and how hot the drum could get before it was a problem. Another half hour down the road, and I was feeling the drum again. It was cool, but the noise was becoming more consistent. Another half hour down the road and I called another friend who knows TR3s well. He never heard of a brake shoe not having a spring or pin holding it in place and warned me to keep an eye on it, and stop at least every half hour. The next time I stopped, I needed gas and when I pulled to the pump, I knew the noise was coming from the front, and the drivers front wheel was about to fall off.

Sorry, that my 'nutshell' story turned into a bomb, but sometimes life is like that.

 

[TR3driver]

I had actually mentioned the uprated axles in my previous post (before it got erased). But since he already has NOS axles, and they last a long time under normal non-racing conditions, I would say "no".

The uprated axles are (or at least should be) available separately from the spacers. IMO the spacers are more of a race-only item (tho I plan to install them myself). The big advantage of the spacers is that they reduce spindle flex, which reduces brake pad knock-back when you've disabled the residual pressure valve. Most folks don't get into that kind of thing.(*)

(*) Different strokes for different folks, of course. I enjoy driving my TR3 like I stole it; while others want to baby the restoration that they spent countless hours (and bales of money) on.

 

[titanic]

I dunno, but for peace of mind, it would be helpful to look at the autopsy and definitively be able to identify the "cause of death". I can only speculate that it was insufficient lack of end play (.003"-.005") when the bearings were installed, coupled with high outside temps and sustained high cruising speeds. Bearing quality and choice of lubricant might also be a factor.
Having said that, I and many others have made many freeway trips in summer at 70-80 mph without a problem.
It certainly makes one think about wheel bearings when travelling on long stretches of road in hot summer temps. I think that Peter Egan made similar comments in one of his stories.
Berry

 

[CJD]

Having said that, I and many others have made many freeway trips in summer at 70-80 mph without a problem.
Berry

So has Jerry. He actually crossed the Mohave desert in summer...with this same set of wheel bearings, I assume!

I personally have only lost 3 wheel bearings in my life:
One was due to a wrong D-washer that allowed it to rub against the hub. I heard the rumble of the bearing going bad long before it actually came apart. The hub filings had contaminated the rollers.
Second was my TR3, where some Bozo put a bearing with an inner race larger than the stub axle size! Against all odds, it was working fine, with no problems until I pulled it apart in the restoration. Of course as soon as I took the weight off the wheel it was obvious something was seriously off.
Third was one on a car I bought. The bearing was rumbling at the time I bought it. Took it apart to find all kinds of metal in the hub, but the bearing was still in one piece.

So my causes have been bad parts, bad parts combined with bad install, and unknown involving PO.

 

[TR3driver]

Thanks all -I really don't know what I'd do without this forum.
I plan to replace the stub axle, bearings, seals, D washer, nut and maybe even the cotter pin.

I hope that was a joke. You should always replace any cotter pin that was removed, every time. They are single use items. The metal is soft and flexible to be bent once (well, OK, a few times); but too many bends will leave it weak and prone to break. Once it breaks, you have both a piece of loose metal roaming around, and a good chance the pin will fall out and stop serving it's function. The break won't necessarily happen immediately either, so you can't tell by looking at it.

As a curiosity, why does the axle have a flat spot on the threaded portion where the castellated nut sits?

I don't know for certain, but almost all cars have them. I believe the point (when combined with the D washer) is to stop the motion of the inner race from applying force to the cotter pin and potentially moving the nut. Having the nut unscrew, even as the result of a major bearing failure like yours, would make a bad situation much worse.

As John said, the inner race has a tendency to move a bit even under normal circumstances. I don't believe the normal motion should wear the spindle; but it's not at all uncommon to find that dirt or grit in the bearing has been causing the race to move more than normal and lead to wear even if the bearing itself seems fine.

 

[CJD]

Hearing the long description, Jerry, it sounds like the noise you were listening to was the drum rub as the bearing failed to keep the hub in position. The bearing failed long before that noise started. A bearing going bad does not make a loud bird squeak noise, but rather a very low frequency rumble...as much "felt" as "heard". It's the sort of low rumble that is frequently overlooked...but once you have trained yourself to "feel" it, you can pick it out pretty quickly.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Randall -yes that was a joke. I might be tight enough to squeeze more life out of a dead TR3, or try to use a cotter pin a second time, but certainly not after this debacle.

Berry -yes I drove straight thru from Houston to El Paso, and the next day to Los Angeles. It was 107 degrees when we left El Paso. The same bearings were in the car then and were repacked with grease in April. Root cause is anyone's assumption. I appreciate yours. I now have over 25,000 miles on this car -the bearings were put in during the restoration and I can still read TIMKIN on the race.

John -NOOOOO! That squeak better be gone after I repair the front wheel bearing. If it's not, you will hear my squeal all the way to Dallas. But I will be sure to take a test drive that does not involve several states. I can make the same sound by turning the remains of the bearing race against the stub axle. The noise was never constant, but always disturbing. The front driver bearing failed not the rear. I suppose I'll have to pull the drums and see if the grind marks have been smoothed, as well as look at the other front axle.

Randal *2 -After I asked that question it occurred to me that the purpose is to keep the D washer from spinning in the event of some other failure, like mine. The D washer dug into the axle, the nut dug into the pin, the washer dug into the hub, but it all stayed together. Had the nut spun off, things may have been worse.

 

[TR3driver]

My 1959 does not have springs on posts to retain the shoes, and we figured the movement of the shoe was an issue that was corrected in later cars,

There actually should not be a problem, just some extra steps that are not covered anywhere that I've found. There should be posts, but they are only behind the shoe, and are adjustable. Rather than having the post stick through the shoe and a spring on the outboard side of the shoe; the hold-down springs are supposed to be installed such that they press the shoes (somewhat lightly) against the posts. The ends of the springs curl over and touch the side of the shoes, to hold them against the posts.

The kicker is that the posts wear with neglect and time (I believe they should be lightly greased once in awhile) and no longer hold the shoes in the right place. When that happens, the shoes move around every time you apply or release the brakes. With the brakes released, the shoe still rides the post, but when the brakes are applied the shoes walk out until the friction surface is flat against the drum. This can lead to obscure clunks, as well as abnormal wear on the shoes.

The cure of course is to adjust the posts until they hold the shoes square (plus make sure you have the springs that press the shoes against the posts as well as against the adjuster and cylinder). The correct cylinder pistons also have slots, while earlier and later pistons (and most replacements) do not. I'm not certain what makes the slots important, but I'm sure Girling had a reason for putting them there.

But I've put a bunch of miles on that kind of brakes, and they can work very well. I adjusted the pegs on my current TR3 when I put it together, and I've got perhaps 50,000 mostly city miles on it without touching those posts again.

 

[CJD]

This TR2 is my first drum brake car without springs to hold the shoes to the back plate. Does that tend to be an issue in these? In the very short time I've driven it, the brakes seem quiet and fine. Not even the little "wiggle" I remember from the old 4 drum American cars that I remember as the shoes moved out to the drum.

I guess your right, Jerry, the squeak very well could have been from the inner race against the axle...but the bearing still had to already fail for that too. I was more thinking that the hub moving up with the failed bearing caused the drum to rub on the back plate.

 

[TR3driver]

Just to be clear, John (CJD) has Lockheed brakes, while the OP has Girling brakes. There were a lot of different Girling configurations used, the configuration without hold down springs was only from late 1956 (roughly December) through June of 1959. So if anyone is wondering why their brakes are different, that is probably the reason why.

Of course there could be other reasons. TS39781LO (which falls in the above range) came to me wearing 9" rear brakes from a later TR3A; probably as a result of someone swapping the original 4.10 axle for a 3.70 from a later car.

John, it's good to hear the Lockheed all-drum system can be made to work well. I've only owned one TR3 with front drums, and I always felt they were sadly inferior to both the Girling brakes on later TRs and the Bendix front drums on my first car, a Chevy Biscayne.

 

[DavidApp]

Did the brake rotor and caliper assembly sustain much damage?

David

 

[titanic]

I guess my point was that having a component or components fail and not being able to pin point the cause is very worrisome because you never know when or if it will occur again.
Berry

 

[doc50]

Sorry, don't mean to shortstop this thread....but Randall, I wanted to send a pic of your former hard top in situ.
Please email me at thomwessels 1950 at gee mail dot com.

 

[TR3driver]

Did the brake rotor and caliper assembly sustain much damage?

That's a good point; the brake rotor was very likely rubbing the inside of the caliper. Might have been the source of the rhythmic squeak.

A few other things that I thought were in the book, but I'm not seeing at the moment:

Front wheel bearings are consumables, but their lifetime varies widely with conditions. For example, splashing a hot hub through water can suck water into the bearing housing, which can carry dirt with it and greatly reduce bearing life. And if the water is not promptly dispelled by the hub getting hot again, it will eventually degrade the grease (again shortening life), and even possibly leading to corrosion issues (in cars that are stored for long periods). So it's important to inspect the bearing surfaces every time you regrease the bearings (as well as actually doing the regreasing). ANY visible wear on the rollers or outer race is grounds to replace the bearing, as it was almost certainly caused by dirt contamination. I don't have the link handy, but there is a document on the web (written by Timken IIRC) that talks about this.

I think I've already mentioned this, but I'll hit it again : the clearance given in the TR2/3 workshop manual is wrong. IMO the .003" to .005" value that Berry mentioned is correct.

But, you can only lock the nut in 1/2 flat increments, which is over twice the .002" range allowed! In theory, dimensions of replacement parts are controlled so that backing off to the available position will result in .003" to .005", but we all know that replacement parts aren't always exactly right. So it's a good idea after replacing the spindle, nut or D washer to do a dry fit and check the clearance using a dial indicator (as shown in the TR4 manual, but inexplicably not explained). If the resulting clearance is out of range, thin the back of the nut until it comes out right.

Obviously, that makes the vertical link, spindle, nut and D washer a matched set; so it's important not to switch nuts or washers from side to side when servicing the bearings. It's also important to replace the D washer if there is any wear or damage to it from the bearing race spinning as that will have changed the clearance.

Last (for now), some of us were taught to let the bearing cage spin while cleaning the inner race with compressed air. Although the race certainly has to turn some, letting it spin at high speed is a very bad idea. Without proper loading, the rollers will bang around and potentially produce microscopic momentary overloads that produce invisible damage to the surface and shorten service life. This applies to all roller/ball bearings, not just wheel bearings. This is also mentioned in that Timken document.