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TR4/4A Superlite Wheels for my TR4 question

SCguy

Jedi Warrior
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Pack Racing has Superlite wheels, but they only have them in 15x6. Moss recommends 15x5.5. Is it OK to put the wheels from Pack Racing on my TR4? I don't want any rubbing and I don't want to put any undo stress on the front end. I'll probable run them with 195/65/15. I'd save about $200 if I buy everything through Packracing. Is there a down side?
 

bobh

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My brother put a set of the Superlites on his TR250. He's put maybe 500 miles on the car since then. I believe he's running a 205 tire, but I can't recall the section width. No problems so far.
 

Alan_Myers

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Hi Larry,

I think the main concern about a 6" wheel width is that it's a little wide for the original TR4 tire sizes, not so much issues about clearance. (TR3 and earlier are another matter. 5.5" is about the upper wheel width limit with stock bodywork, and still might cause clearance problems since there is some variance car-to-car.)

I've seen the Superlites installed on TR4-250 and they look great (very hard to tell from Panasports, which are much more expensive and also don't come in a 15x5.5 size). I'd probably try a set next time I am looking for wheels. But I'd actually like to go to a 16x6 wheel, unfortunately most minilite style appear to be 16x*7* which probably is too wide for any TRs without significant body mods, except maybe TR6.

The only brands I know of that offer the 8-spoke "minilite" appearance *and* come in 15x5.5 are KN Minators and Compomotive (I forget which model of the latter... maybe "ML" or something like that). Both these are more expensive than Superlites. Compomotive are a lot more expensive. And, KN Minotars are a little plainer looking. If you were running 185 or narrower tires, you might start to have a concern. 195s should be fine on a 6" wheel.

And, there are few concerns about over-stressing TR4 with standard suspension. The non-adjustable (see below) front suspension is quite strong on TR4 and earlier. The later cars - TR4A/250/6 with the adjustable/shimmable lower front suspension - need to worry especially about the a-arm inner frame mountings and brackets, which were weak to begin with and were only finally beefed up somewhat on later TR6. And, even this last version can benefit from more reinforcement.

One key place to check for wheel clearance is the upper a-arms, when the steering is turned all the way to right or left. Watch that the outboard ends of the a-arms and the outer nut & bolt holding the ball joint in place don't interfere with the inside rim of the wheel. Also check the brake hose is well clear.

If you get the wheels, check these clearances *before* mounting any tires. Often, you cannot return wheels after mounting tires on them. Still, I don't think you will find a problem.

On a closely related subject, you might also want to consider changing the front suspension geometry a little.

Original to all TR4 there is roughly 2 degrees *positive* camber by design, which means the top of the tire tilts outward in relation to the bottom of the tire, when viewed from the front or rear. This was pretty standard back in the day when bias ply tires were the usual fitment. Most modern cars set up for radial tires use closer to 0 degrees of camber and some are negative a little... up to maybe 1/2 or 1 degree for street, and even more for racing.

This has an effect on tire wear and handling, and also has some effect on tire and wheel clearance. Notice that changing the camber to neutral or negative will move the tire inboard at the top, reducing the chance of rub inside the fender or on the lip of the wheel arch. Reducing camber to neutral will make steering a little heavier at slow speeds. Still, it's a recommended modification and helps wider wheels and tires fit better.

There are several ways to change camber.

One is to heat up and bend the vertical links. This has an advantage of not changing the lengths of the a-arms (upper or lower) which can possibly introduce bump steer (there's usually already a bit of bump steer on TR4). But, it's a job for a pro shop with experience on old-fashion suspensions. It can be a bit tricky to heat and bend accurately. And, it requires complete disassembly of the front suspension and is not easily reversed, should that ever become necessary.

Another method is to slot the bolt holes in the upper a-arms for the ball joint and move it inboard a little. Some advantage of this are that it's relatively easy, requires only partial disassembly of front suspension, allows for repeat adjustment and is largely reversible (ends of a-arms might need trimming, though). Downside is that this *does* change the effective length of the upper a-arms and might cause some steering issues such as bump steer. Also there might be a concern that the setup could slip out of adjustment while out on the road, as there is significant stress on suspension components. An alternative is to make up special adjustable a-arms that have some sort of threaded Heim joint or similar. This gets a bit tricky because it needs to be strong, with top-quality welds for example, and also it can introduce bump steer when changing the length of the a-arm.

A third method is to shorten the cross tube in the engine compartment, pulling the shock towers closer together to neutralize or make for negative camber, depending upon how much is removed. This is a bit tricky to do accurately, to remove just the right amount and have it effect both sides equally. However, it doesn't change a-arm length and no disassembly of the front susupension is needed. It could be reversed by replacing (or re-lengthening) the cross-tube, should that ever become necessary.

Yet another method is to install an adjustable upper a-arm fulcrum such as the one offered by Revington TR in England. This allows plenty of adjustment and is then welded to secure it from ever slipping out of adjustment. It leaves the length of the upper a-arms unchanged, but positions them a little further apart to allow caster adjustment with shims on either side of the stock ball joint, if needed. Of course, it's a non-original modification, if that's important.

With this setup, because the a-arms are a little wider apart, there is a bit more concern about the end of the a-arms coming in contact with the inner rim of a wide wheel/tire. Some trimming of the end of the a-arm is usually needed, but not too big a deal. A slightly oversize steering stop can help, too, although it will limit the car's turning circle slightly.

All this hasn't considered the other major adjustment factor of suspensions - caster - except in the fourth option above. TR4 (except for the first 6500 or so built in 1961) have about 3 degrees of caster, which is pretty good with rack & pinion steering and any tire type. Caster is what helps the steering self-center and adds stability at speed.

The 3 degrees of caster mentioned assumes the frame isn't tweaked in any way to change it from the original setup at the factory. This is a good thing to have checked by an alignment shop. On TR4 and earlier, normally there is no easy way to change caster if it's found to be other than specified. In addition to the Revington TR fulcrums mentioned above, I've heard that caster fine-tuning can be achieved with stock upper a-arms and fulcrum by switching to Jaguar Mk IV upper ball joints, which are narrower and allow room for some shimming. Haven't tried this, though.

I doubt you'll have a problem, but, after the wheels & tires are installed and any suspension changes are made, if you find the tires kiss the inside of the fender a little during hard cornering, there are some other things that can be done. One relatively easy solution would be to install an anti-sway bar. This will also help the car corner flatter and faster, however the bar helps limit suspension travel as well. Another possiblity would be to install slightly taller bump stops (found on the rear, lower a-arm). Also, competition or heavy duty front springs could be used, but will make the car rougher riding in general.

One final thing to think about is speedometer error caused by a change in tire diameter. Most 195/65 are about the same diameter as original equipment tires on TR4: roughly 25". I've got 195/60 tires on my TR4, which are 24" diameter and will cause some error. I could change out or modify the speedo to match, but the car will be fitted with a modern programmable electronic speedo eventually, so I'm not worried about it. You can usually check actual tire diameter on manufacturers' websites.

Let us know if you get the wheels and how you like them.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 

TR4nut

Yoda
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I just put on 195-65-15s with KN Minator 5.5" wheels on my TR4 - I was also interested in the superlites, but was worried about clearance problems especially on the upper A-arms Alan mentions. The TR4 suspension is different than the 4a or 250 so I'm not sure I'd use that positive information without directly verifying suspension clearance.
 
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