Factory production cert arrived!

[TexasKnucklehead]

Today my certificate arrived. I requested it on 12/03 and they were a bit back-logged. I was almost positive the car had been 'signal red' at an earlier point, because of some of the areas I found red paint. I knew the transmission and motor had been changed.

But the number they sent me has an "O" after the "L" and included in the options is "overdrive". I was pretty sure the VIN tag had been replaced because the metal behind it is BRG as well as some BRG on the tag (though red under that). Other details: rear axle ratio 4:1, skid plate, red hard top, fawn side curtains, tonneau cover, heater, soft top kit (Signal Red, beige trim, Fawn top) shipped to Holland.

The dash has a hole where the OD switch could be, but I assumed they all do. It was covered in red with no hole in the material. The car was built 2/24/1958.
The VIN tag I have has no "O"... so which is correct?

Jerry

 

[Tinkerman]

Jerry, glad you got all the info. I need to get off my duff and send my app in. Sorry I can't help you with your question.

Tinkerman

 

[NickMorgan]

It is not unknown for BMH to make a mistake, but I wouldn't have thought that they would get both the commission number "O" and the overdrive being an option wrong. What is your commission number? I think the earlier cars may have had he hole for the overdrive switch but certainly the later cars didn't.

 

[2wrench]

Don't know which is correct...but I think Signal Red
with beige trim is beautiful. Very nice combo.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

It's TS27846L. I'm guessing the certificate is correct because of the fact it's listed as an option as well as a suffix. Plus, the transmission and engine numbers are close to each other, but about a year newer than the body number, implying to me, they were changed during one of the restorations. Since the VIN tag has been off, anything could have been changed when the new one was put on. In nearly 50 years, and at least 2 paint jobs, anything could have been changed...

 

[martx-5]

Does the car still have the 4.1 rear axle?? You certainly would know that when cruising at 70 mph. The 4.1 seems like a natural with an OD trans in there. VIN plates can be changed and stamped easy enough, so maybe it's not the original. If you can post a pic of it, we can determine if the font is proper, or it's a new stamping.

 

[NickMorgan]

Yes, I suppose it is easy enough to change the commission plate along with the two body numbers. If you don't mind, let us have your engine and transmission numbers along with your two body numbers off the brass plates above the battery.
There were numerous changes during the production of the TR3 and that may help to confirm the commission number.

 

[TR3driver]

I believe all the cars had the hole in the dash sheetmetal for the OD (and heater) switches even when neither option was fitted. The holes are even mentioned in the service manual (in the sections about how to add the options, as many dealers did). As noted, the holes were covered with vinyl when the options weren't present.

One indication that might have been left behind : if the car originally had the 4.1 axle, the speedometer calibration would have been different. There is a 4-digit number on the face of the speedo that indicates the calibration, which is around 1150 for cars with 3.7 and 1350 with 4.1.

I also think the hole for the self-tapping screw on the ledge in front of the battery would be missing if the body never had OD.

Seems really odd that you have a plate with a number that the factory apparently never issued. IOW if they built a TS27846LO, then they never built TS27846L. Sounds to me like either someone misread a number; or more likely your plate wasn't created by the factory. Making a plate is pretty easy, and they don't always get the right numbers put on them.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Nick,

Neither of the tags above the battery box were there when I got the car, but it appears as one had recently been removed (you can see the shadow around it).

The Comm number seems right because of the sloped rear floor and the squared off trunk etc. Much has been replaced and there was a miss match of lucar/screw terminal electrical components... but here's some pics:

According to the certificate the body number should be 983177-TS.

Jerry

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Here's what a speedometer looks like that's been under 20' of salt water... but it's the 'non-OD' that Randall references. I think the battery box has been replaced at some point, and don't know where to look for that self-tapping screw.

Now I'm further confused. I have no idea if the number is wrong, or if the car is wrong. I'm still hoping to make a driver out of it, but doubt it will ever be 'right'.

Jerry

 

[Geo Hahn]

What really strikes me as odd is that the body does not have the righthand blanking plate on the firewall. I do not think I have ever seen a body this early w/o that feature.

The font of the commission plate looks correct at a glance though the strike of the letters is pretty inconsistent even by Triumph standards.

 

[NickMorgan]

Jerry,
Are you sure that the commission number is 27846? From the picture it looks a little like 27840. The numbers on the engine and transmission are from a later car, so maybe there has been a bit of mixing and matching.
Whatever, you should just rebuild and enjoy the car.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Nick,
Looking at the tag, the last numeric digit is definately 6. The T, 7 and 4 are all imprinted much harder/further than the others and they are not exactly straight with the 8 being highest.

Thanks. I am already enjoying this car. Rebuilding is part of the fun, right? Trying to do it 'right' is only part of it. Before I go any further, I need to get a title, and this kind of information might be important.

Jerry

 

[TR3driver]

Whatever, you should just rebuild and enjoy the car.

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif

I'd have to look at mine to be sure, but it seems like there are some holes missing, too. ISTR both the control box and fuse block on early cars were held by clips that fit into fairly large holes in the panel, but the holes I see look smaller, as though the screws threaded directly into the sheet metal.

 

[Andrew Mace]

I'm beginning to suspect that the earliest part on your car might be the commission number, and that the engine and gearbox might be correct for the car itself? Assuming the rest is original, do you have "wedge" or "dzus" sidecurtains (or corresponding mounts on the doors)? change was supposedly at TS 28826. 10" or 9" rear drums? (9" at TS 56377) What color is the badge on the apron? red/black or blue/white? (Obviously that's something that could've been easily changed at any time.)

On the other hand, I wouldn't worry too much about it, so long as the paperwork is acceptable to authorities who care. Wouldn't be the first time a lost identity was solved with a pop-rivet gun and a few dollars changing hands. Besides, it's not as if you're trying to pass it off as a long-door TR2. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Andrew,

The only signs of side curtain mounts are the holes where the screws went into the wood. There was no apron. I don't know what size the drums are. Paper work was also lost along with the garage the car was in... a 20' storm surge has the ability to move many things.

It might sell on ebay as a long-door tr2 -but not by me.

Thanks,
Jer

 

[Don Elliott]

As George pointed out above, if the Comm. No. (VIN) is correct, there should be a panel just a bit to the right of the VIN plate like mine has (TS 27489 LO). I suggest that the car is much later - maybe around TS 43000 L and someone has put this VIN plate on it which is incorrect. I also suggest that the engine may be the original one.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...I suggest that the car is much later - maybe around TS 43000 L and someone has put this VIN plate on it which is incorrect. I also suggest that the engine may be the original one.

That could explain a couple of things (such as the firewall holes Randall mentioned) and possibly give you a path to a 'numbers correct' car (if that is important. BMIHT will also do seraches by engine number which might lead you back the the commission number for this possibly TS4xxxx body.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Oh, Randals point about the holes is a result of my poor quality photographs. The holes are fairly larger than they appear, and have one of those bent over metal thingys that will accept a wood-screw. Also there was a lot of sealant applied all over this section of the car making those holes look smaller.

I wonder if anyone knows exactly when the blanking plate went away. I asked this question earlier, and it seemed it could have been a phased in change and meaning the comm number could be accurate?

Numbers correct/or otherwise isn't an issue. I want to drive it someday and have it look good and be about as 'right' as I can make it (on a budget).

I went to the DMV today, and will have to put the body back on, put a engine and tranny in it (though it does'nt have to be complete or functiona), get it appraised by an official "motor vehicle" appraser, get a bond... what a pain.

Jer

 

[TR3driver]

Here's what a speedometer looks like that's been under 20' of salt water... but it's the 'non-OD' that Randall references.

Just for clarity, the presence or absence of OD does not affect the speedo head used. The rear axle ratio does; but the majority of OD cars still had the 3.7 axle ratio.

Some sources have said otherwise, but I'm confident they are mistaken ... the correct story is that the 4.1 axle option was only available in combination with the overdrive; you could have an overdrive car with either 3.7 OR 4.1. Most buyers it appears opted for the 3.7 ... which makes sense to me since I would like even taller gears for freeway cruising. (There is a set of 3.45 gears on the shelf, to be used 'someday' along with the hot rod motor I've been planning for 20 years /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif )