TR4/4A TR4 SVRA Watkins Glen in car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH5UweSaS3o

Sorry about the quality and sound.

The driver was 76 years old at the time of that video and still does almost all of his own car prep, engine assembly and tuning.

It gets pretty exciting about 7:30 when he runs down the lead pack battling for the lead.

The chicane situation at about 8:30 is quite tight. I really doubted that it turns out well.

How does it come that these MGBs are so fast? Or aren't hat Bs?
But great stuff and very well driven...good action.

Hot did it come that he was on the back of the grid at the start?

Cheers
Chris

MadMarx said:

The chicane situation at about 8:30 is quite tight. I really doubted that it turns out well.

How does it come that these MGBs are so fast? Or aren't hat Bs?
But great stuff and very well driven...good action.

Hot did it come that he was on the back of the grid at the start?

Cheers
Chris

Click to expand...

The pass in the bus stop was more akin to NASCAR, but it turned out okay. All the drivers were all smiles at the end of it. You can see when the Lotus gets by again, he points ahead.. which usually means "lets work together and get to the lead".

The blue car is a MGB and that's the fastest one in the country hands down. It also doesn't help he's using Kumho V700 and the Triumph had 5.5" Goodyear Bluestreaks.

You can read a little about it here https://classicmotorsports.net/articles/rivals-speed-mg-vs-triumph/ (Dave Headley) and it's the yellow car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n39gDXnLF4o running 3rd overall just behind the 400hp V8 MGB GTs

The starting position is a pretty funny story. Dick qualified in 3rd oa for the Qualifying Race. During the qualifying race pace lap, the car died and he dropped near the back (about 40th), he worked his way up to 7th oa, but was penalized 12 positions for a single pass under yellow. So he had to start 19th on Sunday.

Chris:
Good questions. Wouldn't the mgb and the TR be in different classifications according to SCCA (in the 1960's)?

They are. TR4s were in DP and MGBs were in EP. Tires are a big part of it, and we've been complaining about it for years. Being allowed a decent R-compound radial would automatically be worth 1-1.5 seconds per lap, which would put the TR about even with the MGB. You can see how the MGB can outbrake the Triumph and use less track to get around the corner. The MGB will always out handle the TR.. it's wider, lighter and has better suspension geometry, just like the TR should always be faster in a straight line (400cc more and an 8 port head). That's kind of what you're seeing there.

Seems that the Goodyear tires are comparable with the Dunlop racing tires they use for vintage racing over here.

We in our group use the Yoko A048 tire which is much cheaper and better drivable tire and it last longer too.

The MGB's aren't that fast in Europe I would say.
The Triumphs are blown down by the Lotus Elan cars.

But again - a real lesson for driving a Triumph.

Pretty awesome to watch! I was wondering about the other cars in that pack so had to go look up the results. I recognized the Lotus 7 but didn't recognize the Datsun Bluebird.

2009 SVRA Watkins Glen Group 3 results

Anyone know what the differences are in the classes? The TR4, Datsun 2000 and Lotus 7 were all 3CP while the 2 MGB's were 3DP and the Datsun Bluebird was 3BS.

Scott

I'm snowed in so you'll get a quick response.

The 2.0L Datsun and Super 7 are "new" DP. They came in the late 60s and were faster than the TR4s, which were subsequently bumped down to EP. With 2 x SUs the TR4 runs 3DP, but the camera car has 2 x DCOEs, so it's bumped up a class. The MGB has a weber on it, but since it only has two intake ports (2 SUs = a single DCOE according to the rules), it doesn't gain any more airflow, and isn't bumped up a class.

That's what I have learned about US sports....you have performance classes while we in Europe do have displacement classes.

Monkeywrench said:

The driver was 76 years old at the time of that video and still does almost all of his own car prep, engine assembly and tuning.

Click to expand...

Can I just say that is AWESOME!

We need to see a Capri out there

Cheers,
M. Pied Lourd

A Capri? I would say Dick would have some trouble to fight against a Ford Capri:





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I'd like that blue one as a daily

Chris has pictures of the car from when Buzz Marcus raced it https://www.tr4-racing.de/pic/buzz/BUzzTullius.html (blue #74). The car is a genuine Group 44 beater both in Dick's hands in 1965 and Buzz's hands after.

Some old ones from 2005. Had some fueling issues that couldn't be fixed at the track (knew what it was, just didn't have the pieces to fix it). Also on old 'chainlink' tread Vintage TDs. Similar to the Dunlop vintage tire for the European guys. Lap times are about 5 seconds a lap slower from where this car and driver run now.

Qualifying race. Motor is breaking up due to the fueling issues, but still trying hard for the first few laps.

Still same issues, but holds it together long enough and makes a real race out of it. Great back and forth with Randy Williams' TR3 and comes down to the last corner. Lost a pin in the oil pump at the end.

Monkeywrench said:

Some old ones from 2005. Had some fueling issues that couldn't be fixed at the track (knew what it was, just didn't have the pieces to fix it). Also on old 'chainlink' tread Vintage TDs. Similar to the Dunlop vintage tire for the European guys. Lap times are about 5 seconds a lap slower from where this car and driver run now.

Qualifying race. Motor is breaking up due to the fueling issues, but still trying hard for the first few laps.

Still same issues, but holds it together long enough and makes a real race out of it. Great back and forth with Randy Williams' TR3 and comes down to the last corner. Lost a pin in the oil pump at the end.

Click to expand...

Wow. Thanks for reviving this thread. These are great videos for a racer-hopeful like me. A few more views and I think I'll have WG figured out. I hope to catch up with you in Sept if your are going to be there.

Bruce,

Those are a friend's car. A bunch of us help out with it at the race track. He's on the computer, but not real computer savvy, so I upload the videos for him. You can also see more photos here: www.the71crowd.com . Here's an article a good friend of mine wrote about the driver: https://thechicaneblog.com/2013/02/11/dick-stockton-a-life-in-racing/

I have videos all over the place, but I guess I can consolidate them in this thread:

1963 Triumph TR4: 2200cc, car weight ~2200lbs w/ driver . Fast Lap 1.36.8, Pole car: Lotus Super Seven, 1500cc, 1175lbs per rules w/o driver. Fast lap 1.36.6 . Keep in mind the Super 7 weights some 850lbs less per rules.

This was the very first public event ever held on NJMP's Thunderbolt circuit. 100+ degree weather and a brand new, never rubbered in track made for some treacherous conditions. Gear oil was dumped on left side of track from turns 5-8 during the pace lap, which is why they aren't using all the track through that section.


Camera car: 1963 Triumph TR4, ~ 2200lbs w/driver, 205/60/15 Hoosier Speedster tires. Fast Lap 1.37.4 ,Red car: lightweight Morgan 4/4 with a 1600cc crossflow engine. Fast lap 1.37.0 . The Morgan has to weight about 1450lbs per rules, not sure how close that one is to that number.

Here is a another:

Both drivers go way back. The other car is Bob Leitzinger's L18 (1800cc) Datsun 510. Weighs a little less than the Triumph and has better tires/ chassis. A good race until the end. The Triumph is on Hoosier Speedsters. That tire isn't as fast as the bias plys the competition is on. That topic is a can of worms... :rolleye:

Bob-

I love watching these. Thanks!

We've been going to The Glen for Fall racing since '01 (the old EMRA event date in mid-October which was handed over to VRG in '07).
It's a smaller, low-key event than the SVRA weekend with tons of track time, great Fall colours and cooler temps (OK...it actually snowed once a few years ago!). Peter Egan has attended this VRG event....it was great fun chatting with him and we're hoping he'll be back. (he wrote about it in R&T).

My first visit to The Glen was '68 to see an F1 race (Stewart was first, then G. Hill second with Surtees in third).

I know the place pretty well. I've probably got 500+ laps there and have run three 3-Hour enduros there plus other lots of other stuff. But it's not my favourite track (it's a big too big for a small-bore car). Nevertheless, we always have a good time there.
We never miss a visit to the Seneca Lodge with friends and sometimes go to the Glen Motor Inn as well.
I know Linda is going out with lady-friends on our next race there to visit the various winerys (there's about 100 around Seneca lake).

Here's a much more sedate video than the TR above, from onboard my 65 horsepower Sprite. :friendly_wink:


Since you guys are Triumph guys, here's a photo of the first TR8 I ever saw (at Lime Rock-1980)