TR2/3/3A Turbo + TR3 = coolness abounds

newmexTR3

Jedi Trainee

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #1

What's up guys,

I'm out in Boulder visiting some family. One of my uncle's friends runs a custom turbo shop, dealing mainly with Porsches. The place is called Injection Labs ( www.injectionlabs.com)

Just so happens that one of their clients is having a turbo installed on a 3A, mostly for sh!ts and giggles. Here are some pics of the work in progress. I'll have some more details as the project continues, but the guy doing the install estimates he'll be able to get 300 HP out of the engine once it is set up. Crazy!

 

Andrew Mace

Moderator

Staff member

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #2

Whoa! 300 hp? Just what is he planning to use for a crankshaft, rods, etc., etc.? :eeek:

But I rather like the fact that the generator is still in place. :wink:

 

V

vivdownunder

Jedi Warrior

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #3

Then those ARP head studs are a good starting point.

Viv

 

TR4nut

Yoda

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #4

Might be a good time to reroute that harness..I bet that turbo puts out a bit of heat!

Novice question on the crank trigger - why is there a gap on the teeth (roughly 10 o'clock position)?

Randy

 

billspohn

Jedi Knight

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #5

Serious doubts as to whether he'd get that much power out of that engine and have it live. I think 200 is a more realistic goal, fairly easily attained.

Wonder if he is going to try and blow through SUs - always a challenge, or suck through a big one - much easier to do.

 

martx-5

Yoda

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #6

I'm not a forced induction guru, but there's no way you're going to get 300 hp from that engine without some real serious money poured into it. I think 200 hp would even be a stretch. My Miata has a supercharger on it running at 6 psi and adds about 40% more horsepower. Most of the forced induction set-ups I've seen add about that much when running 5-6 psi of boost. From what I've seen, 8-10 psi is about the limit for pump gas, an that might add about 50-60% more power over stock. I think a more realistic figure would be in the neighborhood of 140-160 hp...at the flywheel, not the rear tires.

If this guy manages to get 300 hp out of this engine, I want to see the final bill or all the engine parts spread all over the dyno.

 

rlandrum

Jedi Trainee

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #7

Based on the position of the turbo, I'm not sure you could fit carbs on the intake.

I suspect that you'd be better off with TBI. And the Crank Position Sensor unit installed there indicates that's probably the direction they are headed.

It's been a few years since I looked at the turbo stuff, but I believe that the flat spot on the crank sprocket represents bottom dead center. If I recall correctly, it's used to know the position of the crank when the engine is just being started.

 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #8

The gap in the teeth lets the ECU figure out where TDC is.

The aluminum front plate (along with the ARP studs & nuts) seems like a hint to me ... there has already been some serious internal work done on this engine, which probably includes things like dropping the compression ratio down below 8:1, and removing all the edges in the combustion chambers. That's a lot different than just bolting a blower onto an otherwise stock engine (and ECU).

With some carefully selected components, and knock under control, I can believe 300hp is possible. The trick is keeping the rpm down, as higher revs increase internal strain very rapidly; but with forced induction you don't need to use the revs to make power.

 

billspohn

Jedi Knight

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• Aug 8, 2008

• #9

TR3driver said:

With some carefully selected components, and knock under control, I can believe 300hp is possible. The trick is keeping the rpm down, as higher revs increase internal strain very rapidly; but with forced induction you don't need to use the revs to make power.

Click to expand...

I have a lot of trouble believing he'll do better than, say a similarly sized modern design Ecotec turbo in a Solstice GXP at 260 BHP, or equal a Subaru WRX. Just isn't likely to happen. Of course theoretical horses are cheap - dynoed horses cost much more and are harder to come by.....

(Wish he'd resize those pictures so everything would fit on one screen!)

 

Scott_Hower

Luke Skywalker

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• Aug 9, 2008

• #10

With all due respect ... there is simply no way on God's green earth that lump is going to produce 300hp. At least not more than once.

If so, I want a list of parts used to hold the bottom end together along with details of the valvetrain and the headgasket.

My old Porsche 951 (944 Turbo) didn't make that kind of power on factory forged components and it was far FAR more advanced. It was capable of about 450 but not without a lot of expensive mods, Weltmeister chips, o-ringed heads, HUGE turbo and loads of boost.

I'm sorry, but this is just not possible with that lump.

 

tomshobby

Yoda

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• Aug 9, 2008

• #11

I saw Cliff Garrett being interviewed once. He was saying that the limiting factor for the amount of boost for air/fuel engines and resulting hp is the point where the fuel burns because of pressure and heat in the cylinder. He feels that the future of turbocharged racing is diesel engines because the timing of the fuel being injected is the controlling factor.
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/

 

Scott_Hower

Luke Skywalker

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• Aug 9, 2008

• #12

Exactly, which is why the really serious turbo folks run water injection and knock sensors. And multipoint/direct fuel injection, instead of a TBI.

There is simply no way this engine is going to produce 300 bhp with a stock manifold and a suck through carb.

It might for a few runs, but then the pistons will hole/melt.

Garrett is one (or was) one of the principals of AirResearch.

 

PeterK

Yoda

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• Aug 9, 2008

• #13

I'll bet it will sure GO irrespective of the HP #s. Looks like a ton of fun when it's done. Those small turbo's spool up quickly and produce max thrust w/o over-revving the engines so the TR3 lump is perfect. Even if it makes 150HP, it's still a 50% boost from stock.

 

OP

newmexTR3

Jedi Trainee

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• Aug 9, 2008

• #14

The 300HP figure he gave me was based on his estimation of the boost the turbo would produce. He was doubtful that he would end up tuning it that high as the rest of the drivetrain and engine probably wouldn't be able to handle it.

He's going to fuel inject it and showed me the ECU (Engine Control Unit- said it was about $2000 for that alone) that will control the fuel mapping. Once it's all together, he'll sit in the passenger seat with his laptop hooked up to the car's computer and have his client drive while they dial it in.

One of the other engines he had int he shop was a 6.7 liter dual turbo V8 that he estimated they could get close to 1000 hp out of. That one is going in a '67 Mustang. (and will be detuned, as 1000hp is clearly ridiculous).

Must be nice to not worry about budgets, huh?

 

billspohn

Jedi Knight

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• Aug 11, 2008

• #15

Like I said, the 175 - 200 area is possible, but 300 isn't. And you are looking at some serious money on rods and pistons to do that.

We get going on 300 BHP out of my 3.2 Fiero V6 with custom forged pistons, a special crank and 13.5 max. boost PSI on injection. You need knock sensing, automatic timing and fuel control........

As was said though, even if you only tune it to 150 BHP, it will be a hoot. I used to run a TR-3 with a 2.2 engine puting out about 135 BHP that would light up the tires through second gear, and THAT was a hoot.

 

E

Eric

Jedi Warrior

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• Aug 11, 2008

• #16

Getting a 2L motor to make 300 hp with a turbo is perfectly possible, Porsche and Pontiac engineers not withstanding. The question is for how long. Boosted horsepower and engine longevity have a geometric inverse relationship. Pontiac's 260 hp is based on still passing emissions at 100,000 miles and a 200,000 mile service life. Remember the 1.4 L BMW F1 engines (based on the 2002 block) that made 1200 hp? For 3 laps?

For this motor, rev control (as TR3driver notes)will be crucial. I'd think forged everything in the bottom end will be critical, good computer controlled mixture and spark timing and some mechanical sympathy would make 300 hp possible. I wouldn't expect 100,000 miles out of it 'though.

 

swift6

Yoda

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• Aug 11, 2008

• #17

Eric said:

Getting a 2L motor to make 300 hp with a turbo is perfectly possible, Porsche and Pontiac engineers not withstanding. The question is for how long. Boosted horsepower and engine longevity have a geometric inverse relationship. Pontiac's 260 hp is based on still passing emissions at 100,000 miles and a 200,000 mile service life. Remember the 1.4 L BMW F1 engines (based on the 2002 block) that made 1200 hp? For 3 laps?

For this motor, rev control (as TR3driver notes)will be crucial. I'd think forged everything in the bottom end will be critical, good computer controlled mixture and spark timing and some mechanical sympathy would make 300 hp possible. I wouldn't expect 100,000 miles out of it 'though.

Click to expand...

Getting some 2.0 litre engines to make 300 hp is possible. But this particular 2.0 litre engine is not amongst that list. Those that do make that list typically have twin cams, cross-flow heads and a fairly square bore and stroke. None of those qualifiers apply to a TR3 engine. The breathing of the old TR lump is a bit too congested, even when your cramming in the air fuel mixture via forced induction.

The Pontiac engine your referring to is also direct injection, has a square bore/stroke relationship, uses other exotic internal devices such as variable valve timing, electronic throttle control, pressure-actuated piston cooling jets and has more computing power than the space shuttle to keep it all in line.


Of course, the rest of the drive-line would also be in serious need of upgrade if they push the engine to 200+ as well.

 

OP

newmexTR3

Jedi Trainee

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• Aug 11, 2009

• #18

Hey guys,

Got an update on this project. Car is very close to being fired up for the first time. Looking really cool. Drool drool drool.

Check the pics:

 

T

tdskip

Yoda

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• Aug 11, 2009

• #19

Will be interesting to see the dyno results. Nice craftsmanship regardless of the dyno figures.

 

hondo402000

Darth Vader

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• Aug 11, 2009

• #20

I think you get more HP but the torque does not match the HP curve, I installed a TRD superchargeron my 96 4 runner and HP was a big gain but torque was not as impressive
yes which is different than a turbo but superchargers are instantenous and turbos have to spool up to get boost. and by the way unless he keeps his foot in it all the time he might be ok
Hondo