What's the issue with the aux oil line?

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bunzil

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• Feb 23, 2008

• #1

Hi guys. I haven't been on in a while...when there's snow on the ground I think less about Triumphs. I did just check in an was looking at TR-Bills comments on his new cam and the mention that Ted Shumacher (sp?) doesn't like the aux oil line to the head.

Can anyone tell me what the concern is? Any problems that you know of?

Thanks

 

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• Feb 23, 2008

• #2

Some say it takes too much oil from the bottom end, so don't use it.
Others say the top end needs it, so do.

Then again some say Elvis is still alive.
Others don't agree.

You pick what you want to believe, 'cos you won't change anyone else's mind...

 

foxtrapper

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• Feb 23, 2008

• #3

Typically, you're taking oil away from the lower end and sending it to the top. That all by itself is not good.

You're applying a lot more oil to parts that don't need it, and not in a particularly good way.

Now if you get fancy and build a manifold to spray oil onto the rocker faces, and onto the springs to cool them, that can be a gain. But it doesn't seem to be one these engines need.

 

TR3driver

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• Feb 23, 2008

• #4

Another concern is that Triumphs don't use valve stem seals. With all that extra oil up there, you get more oil down the intake valve stems and through the combustion chamber. Which not only gives you ugly blue smoke, but kills the octane of the fuel. Which can lead to detonation under cruise conditions, when it can be hard to hear over the general racket.

Of course you can add seals to the intake stems, but then you run the risk of too little oil to the stem, which can lead to premature wear or even binding. And if one of seals should fail, you have only one cylinder with detonation, which is even harder to hear.

Somewhere on this forum, I already posted a photo of a broken piston from a TR3 motor, caused by an external oil feed & a leaking intake stem seal (Teflon insert came out of the rubber housing).

Just clean the inside of the rocker shaft when it gets clogged with gunk, and you won't need the external feed.

 

Andrew Mace

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• Feb 23, 2008

• #5

that it is, at best, unnecessary. Besides, do you really NEED another potential spot for leaks? And if Ted, who knows these cars about as well as anyone outside of Kas Kastner and the folks back in Coventry, says it's unnecessary, that's good enough for me!

 

Brosky

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• Feb 23, 2008

• #6

I agree with the notion of no line, but the jury seems to still be out with all of the top guys about the valve seals. I believe that properly sized valve seals would be a good thing and so do most machinists that I've talked to lately.

 

foxtrapper

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• Feb 24, 2008

• #7

Remember, most machinists are younger than our cars and their engineering. These engines were designed with no seals, and run just fine without them. Now if you start spraying oil all around the top ends, you're going to get it down the valves. So don't do that.

 

Brosky

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• Feb 24, 2008

• #8

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Remember, most machinists are younger than our cars and their engineering.[/QUOTE]

Not true of the (automotive) machinists in my area, nor is the man that I chose for my machining work. Once these older guys are gone, the next generation will not have the options that we do today.

I learned the hard way about the oil spraying around inside the valve cover and where it can go with an un-baffled alloy cover.

 

Rickc

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #9

Bunzil
Thanks for asking the question. I also saw a big ? after reading TR6Bill's post.
I have one on my engine and thought it would be a good as I recall hearing horror stories about the LACK of oil up there.
Does it really rob that much oil from the lower end where oil is litterally being splashed everywhere?
Andy, Do I read from your post that Kas kastner, along with Coventry, also feels it is useless?
Can someone tell me why there is that convenient threaded hole at the back end of the head???? Was Coventry "experimenting" with some extra oil line???
Maybe I should remove it for a summer?
I must admit, I have head more do not use than use.
Does anyone know who came up with this idea?
Rickc '71

 

Andrew Mace

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #10

Rickc said:

Andy, Do I read from your post that Kas kastner, along with Coventry, also feels it is useless?

Click to expand...

No, that's not what I said (although it's likely true). I was simply comparing Ted Schumacher's knowledge of these cars with that of folks such as Kas...and those who originally designed and built the engines.

I suspect that, to some degree, the advent of these external lines is the same as the advent of auxiliary cooling fans, inasmuch as they often are "band-aid" attempts that really only skirt around the real problem(s). In a head and rocker gear with clean oil passages, more than enough oil gets to where it needs to. Similarly, a clean and clear cooling system -- including both the radiator AND the engine block cooling passages -- will solve the vast majority of overheating "problems"! (I won't argue that the original cooling systems might not have been perfect for extremely hot climates such as the American Southwest, though, and Triumph did offer a "tropical cooling fan" on the wet-liner cars for such climates.)

 

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70herald

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #11

Rickc said:

Bunzil

Can someone tell me why there is that convenient threaded hole at the back end of the head???? Was Coventry "experimenting" with some extra oil line???

Click to expand...

The hole there is needed to drill out the oil passage. After the passage was drilled, the plugged it with a bolt. That was the "convenient" way of solving a production problem.

 

OP

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bunzil

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #12

I'm glad I asked the question as it's produced an interesting academic debate. To me, I seems improbable that the oil line is truly robbing needed oil from the bottom end - the cars hold 5+ quarts of oil. How much can the line be using? The oil press. sender is immediately outboard of the oil line; wouldn't any serious decline in oil and pressure would be indicated on the gauge? In my case, I have noticed no difference. Nor have I witnessed blue smoke, plug fouling, or increased oil consumption.

I think we'd all agree you can't "over oil" a rocker assembly assuming you have enough oil, which seems to be the case. So it appears that the real issues are 1) excess oil passing the valve stems and 2) blow-by in unbaffled valve covers. Paul proved the baffle issue is real. But to point #1, does anyone know just how much extra oil is actually being used up top and has it really been measured to be detrimental? So far, there's much discussion, but little material evidence one way or the other re the valves. I'm inclined to remove the line but remain undecided.

 

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70herald

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #13

The 5 quarts of oil are irrelevant, it is the volume of oil per minute pumped which is then split or rather the percentage going to the bottom of the engine gets reduced.

 

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #14

Geez, why is it that I am starting to like questions like "What color should I paint my car?" more and more. I am starting to get a headache.

 

tomshobby

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #15

All of this is assuming that the pump does not have enough volume capacity. I am pretty sure that if the pressure stays the same that the volume to the lower end would also stay the same.

On the other hand, if the pressure drops the volume most likely would be reduced.

 

G

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #16

Another problem with the aftermarket oil pumps (pretty much all made in India by County) is you should mic them. The do wear out.

 

Brosky

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #17

Bill,

Where are the spec for that measuring process? Is it in the TR6 manual?

 

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piman

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #18

Hello all,

I had an oil feed on my car, but eventually removed it as it did cause oil to be drawn into number six intake valve.

I had no concerns whatever that it was starving the crank\cam lubrication.

Interestingly I saw a picture recently of the Ex Paul Newman Le Taxi (Mk 2 , 2.5 Triumph sedan) racing car which had an external oil manifold alongside the main gallery. Wasn't that one of Kas Kastners engines? I don't quite see the logic in it?

Alec

 

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BryanC

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #19

tomshobby said:

All of this is assuming that the pump does not have enough volume capacity. I am pretty sure that if the pressure stays the same that the volume to the lower end would also stay the same.

Click to expand...

I don't think so. The oil pump is essentially a positive displacement pump. At a certain speed it pumps a certain volume of oil. It will provide whatever pressure is required to push that volume of oil (within reason - there is some slip in the pump so there is some limit to the pressure it can put up). Any extra oil you take to the head is oil you take away from the bottom end.

Bryan

 

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• Feb 25, 2008

• #20

Brosky said:

Bill,

Where are the spec for that measuring process? Is it in the TR6 manual?

Click to expand...

Bentley